Kirby's Study Journal

Kirby · **#321**

I haven't looked into a ton of pro games, so I didn't know the diagram you provided was more common, ez4u. Still, I think attaching on the top is feasible.

The main reason I expected the variation shown is because I learned it from In-seong Hwang as the "proper" way. According to him, attaching on the top *is* normal.

The theory was, the player that kicks gets a lot of corner points in sente. In exchange, the player getting kicked gets a strong group on the left, which has good influence. I think that this is the reason that attaching on the top is feasible - you get good influence, even though the opponent gets corner territory.

For that reason, the move is conditional: you shouldn't kick if the bottom left has your opponent's stones.
That's because the influence your opponent gets is greater than the territory you get. That's why I thought it was okay in this position. I already had presence in the bottom left, so I expected that I take the corner points in sente, and his influence wasn't too much.
If there were already black stones in the bottom left, I wouldn't play it.

OTOH, maybe it'd be good if I had black stone around C8, as well. I didn't know it should be so close for this sequence.

But anyway, from this game, I learned that tenuki seems to be quite a feasible possibility, so I may not get the corner points in sente.
This seems to match what you found in your pro game search - sometimes pros tenuki.

So I guess I should add another condition to playing this way: Opponent may tenuki, so I need to weigh this into the decision of getting the corner points.

Magicwand · **#322**

ez4u wrote:

In my database tenuki is about 50%/50% when there is no White stone close by on the bottom left (think C8). More importantly, however, is that attaching on top is not the 'normal' response, attaching underneath appears about four times as often. So did you expect play to proceed as below, or what? White does get sente but Black gets a very nice shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc The most common Black response at 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

above shape is terrorable for black IMO.
so the correct answer is either below or tenuki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 W 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

ez4u · **#323**

Magicwand wrote:

ez4u wrote:

In my database tenuki is about 50%/50% when there is no White stone close by on the bottom left (think C8). More importantly, however, is that attaching on top is not the 'normal' response, attaching underneath appears about four times as often. So did you expect play to proceed as below, or what? White does get sente but Black gets a very nice shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc The most common Black response at 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

above shape is terrorable for black IMO.
so the correct answer is either below or tenuki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 W 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Well, you'll have to take that up with Gu Li. He is the innovator it seems. Three weeks before the game below he played the attachment on top against Zhang Wei in another Weiqi League game. In the game below, however, he switched to :b1:

and answered :w2:

with

. The 1-2-3 sequence has subsequently been used by Zhou Heyang and Park Yeonghun. I have no pro game where 3 was played as an attachment on top. All that said, I was incorrect to imply that this variation through 3 is the normal joseki however. Usually the opponent just plays elsewhere after the initial attachment underneath.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Peng Quan (white) - Gu Li; 2009 China Weiqi League; 2009-06-13 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . 6 . X . . . 0 8 X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 9 . , X 4 . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . 3 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · **#324**

Personally, I think that the sequence I provided is playable, and also the one shown in the example pro game given by ez4u. As the "one getting kicked" in this sequence, I now have another option to consider than the variation I remember from In-seong. Thanks for that, ez4u.

But more than what the "one getting kicked" should play, from this game review, I can take away that my assumption as "the kicker" was incorrect - getting gote after getting the corner points is quite a viable possibility.

Up until now, I've usually gotten sente, and it's useful to know that this was a big assumption on my part.

ez4u · **#325**

A few other thoughts...

White 1 below in the game was a poor choice. White just got lucky when Black played 4 at 5. Of course Black should have played the standard squeeze with Black 4, etc. below. Black gets a strong position, loosely connected to the bottom. White gets about 5 points. White almost has to add a move in the lower left corner or Black C2 will be very painful.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Strengthening Black's position $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | 7 X 1 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 9 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What happens if White answers 1 below with 2 and just keeps pushing? It seems like White is the one building on a larger scale...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Building on a larger scale $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X O O . . . . , . 0 . . . , . . . | $$ | X X X O X O 2 4 6 8 . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X O X X X O 1 3 5 7 9 . . . . . O . . | $$ | O . O O O X O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | O O O X X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O X , X . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | O X . X . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | X . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the game White played 1 at 'a' but Black was able to peep at 'b' and have White connect at 'c'. This protected against the push and cut at 'd' in sente. Wouldn't White 1 below have been better?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc A better threat? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X O O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | X X X O X O X . X X X X . . . . O . . | $$ | X O X X X O X . O O O . O . . . O . . | $$ | O . O O O X O O . . . . c b . X . . . | $$ | O O O X X X . . X . O . a 1 . X O . . | $$ | O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . d O . . | $$ | . O X , X . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | O X . X . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | X . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Finally, what about 1 below? Doesn't this look more interesting than the hane at 'a' actually played? If Black 'a', White 'b'. If Black 'b', White 'a'. :rambo:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Interesting? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . 1 X O O . X . . . | $$ | X X O O X O . . . . . b X O . . . . . | $$ | X . X O O O X . . , . . X O . , . . . | $$ | X X X O X O X . X X X X O . . . O . . | $$ | X O X X X O X . O O O . O . . . O . . | $$ | O . O O O X O O . . . . O X . X . . . | $$ | O O O X X X . . X . O . O . . X O . . | $$ | O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O X , X . . . . , . . X . X , . . . | $$ | O X . X . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | X . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · **#326**

Thanks, ez4u.

ez4u wrote:

White 1 below in the game was a poor choice. White just got lucky when Black played 4 at 5. Of course Black should have played the standard squeeze with Black 4, etc. below. Black gets a strong position, loosely connected to the bottom. White gets about 5 points. White almost has to add a move in the lower left corner or Black C2 will be very painful.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Strengthening Black's position $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | 7 X 1 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 9 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Indeed, I think this is a variation I provided in the SGF review.

Quote:

What happens if White answers 1 below with 2 and just keeps pushing? It seems like White is the one building on a larger scale...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Building on a larger scale $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X O O . . . . , . 0 . . . , . . . | $$ | X X X O X O 2 4 6 8 . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X O X X X O 1 3 5 7 9 . . . . . O . . | $$ | O . O O O X O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | O O O X X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O X , X . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | O X . X . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | X . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think you are probably correct; though, I need to learn how to compromise. The idea isn't one I even considered. Opponent cuts? My first instinct is to fight back.

Quote:

In the game White played 1 at 'a' but Black was able to peep at 'b' and have White connect at 'c'. This protected against the push and cut at 'd' in sente. Wouldn't White 1 below have been better?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc A better threat? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X O O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | X X X O X O X . X X X X . . . . O . . | $$ | X O X X X O X . O O O . O . . . O . . | $$ | O . O O O X O O . . . . c b . X . . . | $$ | O O O X X X . . X . O . a 1 . X O . . | $$ | O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . d O . . | $$ | . O X , X . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | O X . X . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | X . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Good idea.

Quote:

Finally, what about 1 below? Doesn't this look more interesting than the hane at 'a' actually played? If Black 'a', White 'b'. If Black 'b', White 'a'. :rambo:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Interesting? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . 1 X O O . X . . . | $$ | X X O O X O . . . . . b X O . . . . . | $$ | X . X O O O X . . , . . X O . , . . . | $$ | X X X O X O X . X X X X O . . . O . . | $$ | X O X X X O X . O O O . O . . . O . . | $$ | O . O O O X O O . . . . O X . X . . . | $$ | O O O X X X . . X . O . O . . X O . . | $$ | O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O X , X . . . . , . . X . X , . . . | $$ | O X . X . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | X . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I really like it! :tmbup:

Kirby · **#327**

I had time to play another game today. I guess it's starting to become a Friday thing... Now I just have to work on getting games in Saturday through Thursday...

It's kind of short, because I think he made a mistake.

Anyway, here is my review.

Kirby · **#328**

Some mistakes.

Position 1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . O X . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I guess this is a joseki, but I don't know it well. Maybe it's ok in this situation, but I think it is much simpler, and just fine to play like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think my move in the game was too greedy.

Position 2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 30 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O O O X X X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O B O X O . O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the game, I played as above to increase liberties. I misread, and thought he could capture me. I think it's better for me to just connect.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 30 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O O O X X X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . O X O . O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It looks like this is a joseki. I guess I have some studying to do.

---

I'm sure there would be other things if the game continued, but as the game is so short, I guess that's all that I can think of for now.

Maybe the main thing I can do from this game is to learn the joseki that started from the variation we played in the top left.

Uberdude · **#329**

Your proposed d10 feels wrong, too close to thickness and liable to overconcentration. Better to play in lower left corner.

Bill Spight · **#330**

Uberdude wrote:

Your proposed d10 feels wrong, too close to thickness and liable to overconcentration. Better to play in lower left corner.

Second that.

Kirby · **#331**

Uberdude wrote:

Your proposed d10 feels wrong, too close to thickness and liable to overconcentration. Better to play in lower left corner.

Bill Spight wrote:

Uberdude wrote:

Your proposed d10 feels wrong, too close to thickness and liable to overconcentration. Better to play in lower left corner.

Second that.

Hmm, ok. But can you explain? As it doesn't really look bad to me, I doubt I'd find a problem with it if it comes up in my game again.

ez4u · **#332**

Kirby wrote:

Uberdude wrote:

Your proposed d10 feels wrong, too close to thickness and liable to overconcentration. Better to play in lower left corner.

Bill Spight wrote:

Uberdude wrote:

Your proposed d10 feels wrong, too close to thickness and liable to overconcentration. Better to play in lower left corner.

Second that.

Hmm, ok. But can you explain? As it doesn't really look bad to me, I doubt I'd find a problem with it if it comes up in my game again.

It looks like a normal play but note the difference between the two diagrams below. In the first, Black keeps the initiative and presses White down in the lower left. If White invades the left side before Black protects, it is just another opportunity to attack weak stones.

In the second diagram, 3 is already too close to the Black wall on the bottom and White still has the slide to 'a' to make things worse.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Position at move 15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . 3 . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Position at move 15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a . 7 5 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 , 6 . . 0 . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White might even slide immediately as below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Cho Hun-hyeon (white) - Yi Ch'ang-ho; 32nd Wangwi 1998 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . . O X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . 1 . O O . 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · **#333**

Thank you, ez4u.

I do prefer the first position you provided to the second.

However, it reminds me of this position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I believe that this is OK for black.

So I guess if it came like this...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . , . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It would be bad for black to continue like this...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 1 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , 2 . . 6 . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Because this position seems similar to me to your second diagram. Granted, black is not quite as high in the top right, but white has a lot more territory, too.

Maybe if it's this situation, black should do something else if white attaches on the outside:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 7 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I still don't think that:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Position at move 15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a . 7 5 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 , 6 . . 0 . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

feels that bad, but since I like this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Position at move 15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . 3 . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'll accept the criticism.

Bill Spight · **#334**

Kirby wrote:

Uberdude wrote:

Your proposed d10 feels wrong, too close to thickness and liable to overconcentration. Better to play in lower left corner.

Bill Spight wrote:

Uberdude wrote:

Your proposed d10 feels wrong, too close to thickness and liable to overconcentration. Better to play in lower left corner.

Second that.

Hmm, ok. But can you explain? As it doesn't really look bad to me, I doubt I'd find a problem with it if it comes up in my game again.

Easy explanation (thanks to Takagawa

) : The Black stones in the top left corner do not need an extension.

Let me elaborate a little bit. Since the extension is unnecessary, it is inefficient to a certain degree, and therefore should be avoided early in the game.

yoyoma · **#335**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , O . . O . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There are two big differences. First looking at the top side: In the first diagram the top 3 black stones have no eyeshape and no base. In the second diagram the top black group is already basically alive, even the corner is still open for black to go into. So in the second diagram adding a 3 space extension from that strong group feels like a huge waste.

For the bottom side: The First diagram is symmetrical, so the same argument applies. The 3 black stones have no eyeshape and no base. In the second diagram the Black stones don't have a base, but Black is undercut on the side, so it feels bad to add an extension on the side. They are out further into the center (7th line), so it's probably ok to just leave them for now?

Kirby · **#336**

Bill Spight wrote:

Easy explanation (thanks to Takagawa

) : The Black stones in the top left corner do not need an extension.

Let me elaborate a little bit. Since the extension is unnecessary, it is inefficient to a certain degree, and therefore should be avoided early in the game.

I have heard that "influence needs an extension". Is this contrary to what Takagawa is saying? What conditions make the extension in this case unnecessary?

For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 1 3 5 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O 2 4 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It seems natural to play at 'a' next to me. That's because extending from the influence produced by the wall at the bottom produces potential among the stones.

Strictly speaking, I would argue that the extension isn't necessary, because the wall black made isn't close to dying, and isn't that weak.

Does this mean that it would be wrong to play 'a'?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 1 3 5 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O 2 4 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · **#337**

yoyoma wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , O . . O . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There are two big differences. First looking at the top side: In the first diagram the top 3 black stones have no eyeshape and no base. In the second diagram the top black group is already basically alive, even the corner is still open for black to go into. So in the second diagram adding a 3 space extension from that strong group feels like a huge waste.

For the bottom side: The First diagram is symmetrical, so the same argument applies. The 3 black stones have no eyeshape and no base. In the second diagram the Black stones don't have a base, but Black is undercut on the side, so it feels bad to add an extension on the side. They are out further into the center (7th line), so it's probably ok to just leave them for now?

Thanks, sounds reasonable.

Charles Matthews · **#338**

ez4u wrote:

[...] Black keeps the initiative and presses White down in the lower left.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Position at move 17 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . 1 . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Indeed.

here is powerful. So much so that I think :w2:

is the natural play. White settling the lower left seems to help Black, or at least to help Black make decisions. I have a bias in favour of tenuki anyway.

The other thing to say is that the play at a looms large, as soon as Black thinks of the left side as a framework. Obviously if Black is going to play here, it becomes ridiculous to under-extend.

I don't know how the game would go, but I prefer Black, and would be thinking about C4.

Knotwilg · **#339**

Influence needs extension but thickness needs not.

The upper left is not only influential, it's thick.

Bill Spight · **#340**

Kirby wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

Easy explanation (thanks to Takagawa

) : The Black stones in the top left corner do not need an extension.

Let me elaborate a little bit. Since the extension is unnecessary, it is inefficient to a certain degree, and therefore should be avoided early in the game.

I have heard that "influence needs an extension".

Don't believe everything you hear.

Quote:

Is this contrary to what Takagawa is saying? What conditions make the extension in this case unnecessary?

Takagawa says that there are two kinds of walls, those that require an extension, and those that do not. The difference is eye potential. For a wall without eye potential, a proper extension provides a base. (OC, in real games there are degrees and exceptions, but this is the basic idea.

)

In this case the Black group in the top left has no problem with eyes, and an extension is unnecessary. The Black stone in the bottom left could use some help, but the extension is not the play to provide it.

Quote:

For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 1 3 5 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O 2 4 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It seems natural to play at 'a' next to me. That's because extending from the influence produced by the wall at the bottom produces potential among the stones.

Strictly speaking, I would argue that the extension isn't necessary, because the wall black made isn't close to dying, and isn't that weak.

Does this mean that it would be wrong to play 'a'?

To be clear, the point about avoiding unnecessary plays is mine, not Takagawa's. In this case Black plans to extend on the left side, such as in the next diagram.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Simple extension $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

To make her framework even larger and more secure, she leans on the :wc:

stone first, as in the next diagram.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Leaning first $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 1 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this case the question is not whether the extension is necessary or not. It was already desirable.

Kirby's Study Journal

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