Not just to be faster (avoid pushing from behind), but to avoid strengthening the Black wall.

To Black D-08 I expect I would push and take sente.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Continuing with the "output"...

Here's a game I played today. Rank has been going down, since I am rusty. I went down to 1k on KGS, so I played black against 1k. I almost lost here, too. I think if he didn't tenuki in the center and just killed me, I would have lost. Prior to that, I think I could have played first in the center, because his threat on the left side group didn't seem severe enough to kill me. So the game went back and forth, with both of us missing key points.

Again, I got into "do-or-die" situation where I had to live in the middle.

_________________
be immersed

Some key points from this game... I think:

1. Watch out for overplay. Just reducing is OK sometimes when going too deep will get me into trouble.
2. Be careful of knowing what needs a response and what doesn't. If I'm correct from the review that black is just alive on the left, then I should have played first in the center to give me a better chance of living.

_________________
be immersed

Also, another thought that comes to me:

3. Listen to proverbs more.

It's common knowledge that proverbs don't always need to be followed. Empty triangle is bad shape, but sometimes it's a great move. Pushing from behind is bad, but sometimes necessary. After hane, extend can be useful, but not always. The list goes on.

But personally, I pay too much attention to the "exceptional cases". I know that empty triangle can be good. So I often read variations with it. Pushing from behind can sometimes be good. So I read several such variations. I have overlooked the fact that these "exceptional cases" only happen a small percentage of the time. So I should spend less time focusing on the "exceptional", and pay more attention reading the "common".

Same with playing outside of joseki. You should extend and improve joseki - but once you're at that level. I'm not at that level.

This game and the last, as Bill noted, I easily ignored proverbs, such as "don't push from behind". Because I didn't care - there are exceptions, after all. But I think at my level, there's still a lot that I can learn from the "common case".

Maybe when I am 7d, I can think about extending these proverbs, but until then, I think proverbs can get me a long way.

_________________
be immersed

One of the things that got me to the equivalent of 1d in chess was to stop always thinking that I was smarter than the proverbs and that the current situation was exceptional in some way that called for playing a move that violated them.

At 111 you ask yourself, "how do I always get into these live or die situations"

But at this point, such a desperate attempt seems called for because you're more than 10 points behind.

Tracing back, already at 68 White's thickness is overwhelming. At the surface, Black still has the moyo but only a few moves later, at 74, we can see that White is leading: his moyo is deeper and stronger and Black's bottom is being disrupted.

As you correctly analyzed: 45 was an overplay and your alternative is way better, building up your moyo while reducing White's.

Already at 38 White got overwhelming thickness at the top which was the consequence of you trashing around at 15,17,19
I don't think you need to know joseki to understand that randomly throwing stones hoping that you'll magically draw something out of nothing, isn't a viable tactic. Either you try to live, or you sacrifice one bit to get a good result with the other bit, but all require a good deal of reading. BTW, I think that invading the top or the left side at that point would be easier than the submarine move in the corner you played. And also, when Black & White go into a moyo building contest, usually it is more rewarding for Black to keep building and let White do the invading first, as a continuous built will normally maintain the advantage of playing first.

Eventually, you manage to create a living shape in what should have been his territory and he cannot compensate for that anymore. Well done.

Always helps when the opponent tenukis!

BTW, at 111, maybe if I play bottom left 3-3, game is not so bad. I am not great at counting, but maybe I can close the gap to less than 10 points. Not really sure.

At 15, 17, and 19, I agree it wasn't good. My intention was not to randomly thrash around, though, I'll admit that I was a bit lazy with reading here.

_________________
be immersed

It is probably the best move now but it doesn't look enough to win. White has lots of thickness to make extra points. But between an impossible invasion and an insufficient reduction, the latter is perhaps better



I think most of us rarely have the intention to randomly trash around but are often lazy with reading.

Discounting G7 area after 3-3, I think it would be pretty close game. But white has more potential in g7 area, so it would be a difficult battle.

_________________
be immersed

Hi Kirby,

I used to have very similar "mental blocks" (and still do! ).
However...

I see your point, Ed. I suppose my point was that maybe there are things I can learn from proverbs at my level.

To now, I completely disregard them - well, mostly. And that's due to the reasons you mention.

But maybe proverbs still have value.

For example, in a math class, it's generally better to understand the material and make calculations specific to the particular problem you are working on. Nonetheless, generalized formulas can be valuable: they can help direct your thinking, and sometimes provide the correct answer. Maybe sometimes you need to modify the formula or throw it out. But in a lot of cases the formula may still be useful.

_________________
be immersed

Ed, I'm not sure why you hid anything, but pros from Japan at least commonly accept the proverbs that empty triangle and pushing from behind is bad. There are cases where it's the only move, but in general you try to avoid doing those things.

I don't think these proverbs are controversial at all.

Yes, and yes.

Continuing the "output"... I played a game against KGS 1d today. I was an AlphaGo wannabe, and made a losing position early on. Also missed some simple stuff in the top right.

I got a big framework, and somehow got a lot of territory.

Here's the review, which I'll do again on Saturday:



Learning points from this:
1.) Don't be a wannabe without understanding what you want to be.

_________________
be immersed

You are winning by a lot after dying on the bottom. (One way to realize this is that you won by 30 points after making mistakes on the top right.) You really underestimate the value of thickness.

I guess I don't value what I can't count. Or at least, I don't value it very much. Probably any worth I do put to influence/thickness is from experience and/or what people have told me (e.g. they have a wall, so prevent an extension).

_________________
be immersed

Some comments.



Main points:

1) Learn the net.

2) Keep emulating AlphaGo.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Net @ 49 is hilarious. I never even considered atari from that direction. I read out a couple of moves with the atari in game, and decided to go with it.

So in addition to undervaluing thickness, I need wider reading.

I guess solution to latter is go problems - don't do those much these days. Not sure about solution to valuing thickness... I guess I should try to play games and get thick to practice?

_________________
be immersed

The reason that I saw the net almost instantly and just used reading to verify it -- it's a little tricky --, is Segoe's book, http://senseis.xmp.net/?TheBookToIncrea ... rengthAtGo . It could have come straight from the book.



This game showed a couple of things about thickness. First, you have the ability to take advantage of it. Second, your opponent did not know how to play against it. Which is why you won by so much. These two things suggest that playing for thickness will increase your win rate. You still would have beat a more competent player.

I made shodan in no small part because of my opponents' inability to play against thickness and influence. OC, if they had been better in that department, they may well have been stronger. Usually, a change in style means incurring losses for a while. In this case, you probably would start winning more right away.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Continuing the series of "output", I played against KGS 2k today. I was destroyed.

I made some pretty simple reading mistakes. So maybe I need to start doing more "input". It's been quite awhile since I really sat down to do some go problems. I think they might be called for.

Another problem may be my attitude. When I am playing KGS 2k, I felt that the win is already mine for his to take away. So I play pretty aggressively, even when things don't work. It's not a great attitude.

Here are a few comments:


Takeaways:
1. I need some "input". It's been awhile since I did go problems. I've been lazy at getting back to it, but I think this game warrants some practice. A lot of the simple positions I messed up on aren't that complicated, and probably the go problems I practice would be more difficult.

2. I should play the board and not the opponent. What works works, and what does not work does not work. Just because my opponent is a certain rank, it doesn't mean that what doesn't work works (though I guess, in reality, it sometimes does in the actual game). Besides, even if "what doesn't work works" against certain players, that kind of "output" is not that beneficial, since it reinforces my playing bad moves.

_________________
be immersed