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 Post subject: Re: Trying to become pro
Post #81 Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:08 am 
Gosei
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tchan001 wrote:
If you want to try a really interesting tsumego, this is one of my favorites. Very well constructed and quite difficult.


I really want it to work that way : D
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O a |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X e |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O d 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Variation 'a' should capture. Black can't play at :b9: himself because after Black :w8: he can't give Atari at T14 and when Black starts a capturing race with S11 he loses by one move.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O 2 |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O 8 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X 4 6 7 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 3 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Variation 'b' or 'c': Black loses the two stones (second eye for White).
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O 3 |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O 5 O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O 4 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Variation 'd': White captures those two stones as well. DOES NOT WORK: Black play :b4: at :w5: !
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O 3 |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O 7 O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O 2 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


EDIT:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Variation 'd'1: I hope with :w7: White catches the three Black stones. Need to go now ^^ Will check later!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O 4 |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X W 2 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X 6 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 5 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Variation 'e': White captures those stones as well.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O 4 |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X 2 |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O 3 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X 6 8 9 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 5 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c black to play
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X X |
$$ . . . O O O O O X |
$$ . . . O X . X X O |
$$ . O . O X . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c black to play
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X X |
$$ . . . O O O O O X |
$$ . . . O X . X X O |
$$ . O . O X . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . 1 . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]


I hope this move works, I'm really bad with such corner positions : /

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 Post subject: Re: Trying to become pro
Post #82 Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:28 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O . 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How would you answer this reply?

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 Post subject: Re: Trying to become pro
Post #83 Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:55 am 
Gosei
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tchan001 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O . 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How would you answer this reply?


Tricky, tricky! Here I looked at five different responses and missed the most difficult one ^^
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O 4 |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O 3 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'd say it has to go like this and now Black has to defend the cut at 'a', otherwise White can capture those three stones again.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X . . X |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X 2 X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . 4 |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Forced?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X . . X |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X O X 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X 3 O 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X X 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For White unfavourable M-m-m-monster Ko? Or just wrong first move? =D



post scriptum:
Ko is not that unfavourable because White has bunch of local Ko threats.

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 Post subject: Re: Trying to become pro
Post #84 Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:22 am 
Gosei
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SoDesuNe, look inside
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O . 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How about this?


Maybe Josh would care to share his findings with us
Josh Hatch wrote:
@Tchan- I've seen other problems that use the same tesuji as your problem before but it took me a while to find it the first time.

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 Post subject: Re: Trying to become pro
Post #85 Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:02 am 
Gosei
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tchan001 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O . 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How about this?


I just found several mistakes in my earlier tries, so I guess my move does not work.

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 Post subject: Re: Trying to become pro
Post #86 Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:38 am 
Gosei
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Okay, new try =) Forcing moves first!

But it's still just a Ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X 2 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w1: and :w3: seem to be totally forcing, Black can only answer with :b2: and :b4: .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O a |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O . 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X X X b |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And now we smash :w1: on the board, threatening 'a' and 'b'!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O 2 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X 4 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X X X 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this is the strongest response Black has. But White has too many local threats for the size of the Ko, it seems.
Any other move by Black lets White live unconditionally, I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Trying to become pro
Post #87 Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:25 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O 3 |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O 5 O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O 4 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X X X 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe something like this?

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 Post subject: Re: Trying to become pro
Post #88 Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:27 am 
Gosei
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tchan001 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O 3 |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O 5 O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O 4 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X X X 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe something like this?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O O |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now Black can't connect, so White has still his second eye, I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Trying to become pro
Post #89 Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:28 am 
Dies in gote

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SoDesuNe wrote:
Okay, new try =) Forcing moves first!

But it's still just a Ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X 2 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w1: and :w3: seem to be totally forcing, Black can only answer with :b2: and :b4: .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O a |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O . 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X X X b |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And now we smash :w1: on the board, threatening 'a' and 'b'!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O 2 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X 4 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X X X 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this is the strongest response Black has. But White has too many local threats for the size of the Ko, it seems.
Any other move by Black lets White live unconditionally, I think.

That was the solution I had.

There's a similar problem in the Lee Changho Life and Death series, problem 17 in book 5. It's a few moves further along than the problem Tchan posted.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Rotated to match Tchan's problem
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


tchan001 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O 3 |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O 5 O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O 4 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X X X 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe something like this?

White can play m19 next and will be able to live.

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Post #90 Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:55 am 
Gosei
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I'm happy I got the first 2 moves and the idea almost right then (I didn't post any answer, but was checking ;) )

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Post #91 Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:02 pm 
Gosei
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Anyways, this is different from the model answer, but I don't want to waste any more space on Leyleth's thread on his becoming a pro. But if he wants to try a hard pro like prob, try the middlegame problem I posted on a separate thread.

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Post #92 Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:11 pm 
Gosei
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tchan001 showed me the model answer on KGS and it's - of course - much cleaner. No Ko, White lives unconditionally or connects out over the top. But at least it involves the same Tesuji eventually ^^

Black strongest (and most unreasonable) line:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 2 5 0 9 X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 4 3 1 7 O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X 6 O X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O X 2 X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X X O X O X O O 6 |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O 1 O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O . 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X 4 8 9 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 3 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White connects out:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 2 6 4 8 X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . 9 . . 3 1 7 O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Trying to become pro
Post #93 Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:28 pm 
Dies in gote

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Started to lose lots against 7 kyus. Makes me depressed and now I'm just mad at everything in sight. Can't seem to win anymore. It's like if I had forgotten how... I'm so mad at myself. I can beat these guys. Hopefully it's gonna be better tomorrow. It's probably gonna sound stupid and girlish, but I just wanna cry. I can win. I know I can. However, my mind forgot how to play well. I make some sloppy mistakes despite lots of reading. I play bad moves. My go simply went from poor to horrible. I'm so mad...

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 Post subject: Re: Trying to become pro
Post #94 Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:28 am 
Lives in gote
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We all have days like that Ley x.x The thing I use to pull through is to think about what the best moves are and not think about winning or losing at all. If this is hard, try playing only free games and when you feel super buzzed in the zone you can pop a rated game or two. But especially for slumps where you think it's all about winning or losing.

It's best to forget about winning and losing and just focus on playing well, not being afraid and not thinking your opponent is stronger than he actually is. Challenge him, don't let yourself be pushed around. Be positive!

:))

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 Post subject: Re: Trying to become pro
Post #95 Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:22 am 
Gosei
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Leyleth wrote:
Started to lose lots against 7 kyus. Makes me depressed and now I'm just mad at everything in sight. Can't seem to win anymore. It's like if I had forgotten how... I'm so mad at myself. I can beat these guys. Hopefully it's gonna be better tomorrow. It's probably gonna sound stupid and girlish, but I just wanna cry. I can win. I know I can. However, my mind forgot how to play well. I make some sloppy mistakes despite lots of reading. I play bad moves. My go simply went from poor to horrible. I'm so mad...


You'll do better tomorrow. (It's a law; Regression to the mean; don't forget, though, the law says when you have a super good day, you'll do worse the day after...)

I don't recommend spending too much time being angry at yourself, it's not healthy. Go study instead. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Trying to become pro
Post #96 Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:44 am 
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daniel_the_smith wrote:
You'll do better tomorrow. (It's a law; Regression to the mean; don't forget, though, the law says when you have a super good day, you'll do worse the day after...)

I don't recommend spending too much time being angry at yourself, it's not healthy. Go study instead. :)


This "law" makes compulsive gamblers lose fortunes. If it was bad today, it has to be better tomorrow. No, there is no law like this. Luck / randomness on the next day is independent of today's luck / randomness. As Go isn't a game of luck, but one of complete information it is even worse. Odds are you play worse the day after a bad day because you are not calm and don't play your best after a bad streak. Just keep playing and see how deep you can fall. Learning to cope with disappointments and to keep trying will make you a better player in the long run.

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Post #97 Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:14 am 
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tapir wrote:
daniel_the_smith wrote:
You'll do better tomorrow. (It's a law; Regression to the mean; don't forget, though, the law says when you have a super good day, you'll do worse the day after...)

I don't recommend spending too much time being angry at yourself, it's not healthy. Go study instead. :)


This "law" makes compulsive gamblers lose fortunes. If it was bad today, it has to be better tomorrow. No, there is no law like this. Luck / randomness on the next day is independent of today's luck / randomness. As Go isn't a game of luck, but one of complete information it is even worse. Odds are you play worse the day after a bad day because you are not calm and don't play your best after a bad streak. Just keep playing and see how deep you can fall. Learning to cope with disappointments and to keep trying will make you a better player in the long run.


If luck were the sole determining factor, then you're correct, it's the gambler's fallacy. But if some aspect of your skill is involved, then regression to the mean is a real effect; on awesome days, you're likely to do worse the next day, on horrible days, you're likely to do better the next day (it also works backwards in time). Of course there's tons of other effects, too (like if you get depressed by a bad result, you can play even worse as a result). At 7k I expect other effects to dominate (e.g., it's possible that Leyleth has just started to understand how bad 7k's really are).

Another way of stating regression to the mean: If your average strength is 7k, then for every day you play like a 9k there has to be a day where you play like a 5k. And vice versa; for every 4k day there's a 10k day. The law is not your friend.

Edit: actually I don't like that phrasing, this is better: If your average strength is 7k, you're much more likely to experience days where you play near a 7k level than days where you play much better or much worse than 7k. So, if you just experienced a day where you played much better or worse, it's likely that the day before and the day after will see you playing nearer 7k.

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Last edited by daniel_the_smith on Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Trying to become pro
Post #98 Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:31 am 
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I guess playing free games can help, also don't giving a sh?t about your games. After all, it's a game. It's not still your job Leyleth, take it easy for a while.

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 Post subject: Re: Trying to become pro
Post #99 Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:02 pm 
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RBerenguel wrote:
I guess playing free games can help, also don't giving a sh?t about your games. After all, it's a game. It's not still your job Leyleth, take it easy for a while.


How can you play your best when you don't care about the game in question? Did this work for anyone? (Kawabata says in Meijin how seriously Shusai even took other recreational games. And I believe I heard similar things about other professional players.) I would advice the opposite: Only play rated games and get used to losing a rank in between. It happens to all of us.

Imho it is no good to have a fixed idea of oneself as a 7k or 2d or whatever, these are hopefully nothing but the expressions of a still limited but increasing understanding. Seeing the rank swing back and forth may help more against the whole reification of ranks than anything else. Plenty of unranked KGS players are in fact very rank-conscious outside server play, but can't stand the idea of "not being able to represent it" on KGS.


Last edited by tapir on Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Trying to become pro
Post #100 Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:07 pm 
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It's not the gambler's fallacy.

The gambler's fallacy is "I lost today, so I shall win tomorrow." Complete garbage if results are independent.

Regression to the mean is "I had my worst loss (or biggest win) in years today. Tomorrow won't be so bad."* Guaranteed by the laws of probability for independent events.

* Or perhaps you'd prefer "it's extremely unlike that tomorrow will be this bad". The relation between such absolute statements and claims about probability is one of those problems that is too hard to ever be solved.

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