Life In 19x19 :: Way2go learns Go

If you want to play look me up on DGS.

LESSON PLANS
1. Start the 7-yr-old on 5x5 Capture Go.
2. Start the 10-yr-old on 7x7 Capture Go.
3. Play some 9x9 games with the 14-yr-old, who can already beat me sometimes at 9x9 Capture Go.
...

Some teachers just jump ahead into regular go after the students have played first capture go enough to become familiar with placing the stones and paying attention to liberties.

way2go wrote:

LESSON PLANS
1. Start the 7-yr-old on 5x5 Capture Go.
2. Start the 10-yr-old on 7x7 Capture Go.
3. Play some 9x9 games with the 14-yr-old, who can already beat me sometimes at 9x9 Capture Go.
...

So far, this has not gone exactly according to plan :-|

. They all really enjoy playing Capture Go, which is great

. However, they don't like the idea of handicap stones, even though I have tried explaining handicaps in two different ways. They all are competitive and want to beat me in even games.

Second, none of them want to play a normal game. The oldest can win against me at Capture Go, but loses at a regular 9x9 even game. Consequently, she only wants to continue playing Capture Go.

My question is whether to keep playing Capture Go and hope that one or more of them will eventually be interested in the real game, or would it be best to simply set it aside for a month or two and try real games again later?

I'll forget about explaining eyes and territory

I have a friend who refuses to take a handicap from me.
Playing him was not much fun for either of us.

Those are excellent suggestions, Bill. We will try that.

We had just been playing that the first person to capture any number of stones won. Now that you have explained how to structure it, I think that will work better. I'll forget about explaining eyes and territory for now and we'll just enjoy playing. Thanks!

I hadn't thought about Capture Go as a category of problems before. There are a couple of problem sets at http://www.101weiqi.com/questionlib/ that have the word "capture" in their translated titles. They could probably be considered as Capture Go problem sets for beginners.

I was talking about discovering wrong instincts in another thread. I definitely see that in the capture game!

Here's my attempt:

Author:	way2go [ Tue May 03, 2016 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Way2go learns Go
This L19 Study Journals forum is a great idea, and it's encouraging to see so many experienced members willing to help weaker players. Since I'm serious about learning, I'm starting my own journal here to track my progress. It will also be a convenient place for me to ask questions. GOALS It has been said that the best way to learn a subject is to teach it. I hope to learn enough to be able to teach three kids. Note that I am not expecting to stay ahead of them for long. We can all learn together. I also think it would be fun to find an online study buddy, to play games together and compare notes as we both try to improve. RESOURCES Early on, I read that beginners should first check out all the resources that are freely available on the internet, rather than rushing out to buy a stack of books. I followed that advice until last week, when I ordered the Level Up series of workbooks. From the L19 reviews, that series sounds like a good, systematic approach to teach kids -- and I expect to learn a lot from it myself. Re free tutorials and other internet resources: There are so many excellent beginner-level tutorials out there. A while ago on the OGS forum, I posted a long, annotated list of the ones I've done. For any other beginners who might stumble upon this thread later, I will copy that list into my next post (scroll down). CURRENT STUDY 1. I have bogged down in the middle of 321go.org, but I do want to eventually finish that course. My level for that site's ranking system is 21k, and I'm working on Chapter 4.2. I need to redo the Seki section, since I made too many mistakes on those questions. 2. The Level Up series should be delivered today, and I will be starting with the first book. The review will be good for me, and it will also help me help the kids. 3. Doing tsumego daily, on sites such as http://gochild2009.appspot.com/ and http://www.101weiqi.com/questionlib/ . The poor Chinese/English translation on that 101weiqi site can be confusing. For example, there are translated terms like "Flutter" and "Hold and eat free food." While the literal translations have been entertaining, it would be easier if there were terms I recognized, such as throw-in or serial atari. GAMES There is no local Go club near us, and I don't know any experienced players IRL. I haven't played many online Go games so far. If I'm remembering correctly, in one of her videos, Haylee said she didn't like to play actual games when she started, but she loved to do tsumego. I can totally relate. I like the whole idea of studying Go and all the thought processes involved. I haven't played enough to know whether or not I will enjoy playing games online. Maybe it is online Go anxiety, but so far I haven't felt like I truly understand the game, and I haven't been all that anxious to play online with strangers. I'm hoping that will change with experience. On OGS, I started a forum thread for Beginner vs. Beginner Learning Games. The idea was for beginners to play each other and chat about their moves, with the hope that they would learn from each other as they went along. I played seven of those unranked learning games, and they didn't exactly work out the way I envisioned. We got involved in the games, and we didn't end up chatting much. Our reviews afterwards were somewhat more beneficial, although reviews from stronger players would have been more helpful. I also learned that while I'm a beginner, I shouldn't start seven correspondence games at the same time. It was hard to keep track of my planned moves for each game; that's something else that must get easier over time. LESSON PLANS 1. Start the 7-yr-old on 5x5 Capture Go. 2. Start the 10-yr-old on 7x7 Capture Go. 3. Play some 9x9 games with the 14-yr-old, who can already beat me sometimes at 9x9 Capture Go. 4. Work on the GoChild site and Level Up book 1 with all of them. FUTURE PLANS 1. Complete the Level Up and Jump Level Up series. 2. Complete the 321go.org course. 3. Research which other books and YouTube videos would be good for my level. 4. Revisit http://www.learngo.co.uk/GoTutor/Tutor.php , studying strategy and tactics for the whole 19x19 board. 5. Ask for a teaching game when I'm finally ready to graduate from 13x13 and try my first 19x19 game. (But I'm not there yet.) Those are the first steps on my Go journey. Comments and suggestions are always welcome.

Author:	way2go [ Tue May 03, 2016 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Way2go learns Go
I originally posted this list on the OGS forum. This is a revised copy of that post, for any other L19 beginners who might be interested. Free Resources for Beginners When you are a Go beginner, the amount of information can be overwhelming. This is an annotated list of links that I, as a fellow beginner, have found useful. The Interactive Way to Go http://playgo.to/iwtg/en/ This is a classic site, often recommended, and it is where I started — but only because it was the first tutorial I found. About two-thirds of the way through, it became harder, especially since I knew nothing else about Go. At that point, I set it aside and went back later to finish it. Pros: Provides a good overview. Covers additional topics that some other tutorials miss. Cons: Does not work on iPad. ------ Igowin Tutor app https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/igowin- ... d331538702 If you have an iPhone or iPad, this free app's Tutor section is excellent for complete beginners. Had I known about it, I would have started here, although it was still a very good review of the basics. For other platforms, this is the free eBook it is based on, The Way to Go by Karl Baker: http://www.usgo.org/files/pdf/W2Go4E-book.pdf Pros: Starts with a logical progression: Points, Liberties, Connections, and then Capture. That order made a lot of sense to me. Cons: Not yet available on Android. ------ OGS Tutorial https://online-go.com/learn-to-play-go This is the interactive Learn to Play Go tutorial on the main OGS site. It has a clean, well-designed interface and is simple to use. Pros: This is one of the quickest ways for a total beginner to learn enough to start playing games. Cons: Additional topics are beyond the scope of this short tutorial. It ends with an option to play a computer bot (Fuego), which can time out. ----- Sensei's Library http://senseis.xmp.net/?PagesForBeginners Sensei's library is a wiki of over 22,000 pages dedicated to the game of Go. The beginners' section is a good starting point. There is also a glossary of Go Terms that link to full explanations, often with illustrated examples: http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoTerms Pros: Here you can find details on a huge variety of topics related to Go. Cons: The sheer volume of information can be daunting. Some pages are works in progress. --- GoChild http://gochild2009.appspot.com This site was originally created for a kindergartener, and there are no written instructions. You solve tsumego (puzzles) by choosing a Pack in the right column. After you load a Question, the left column displays an icon. For example, in the capture sections the icon is a hand placing a stone in a bowl. After the introductory sections, one of the best packs for beginners is Life and Death Basic. The icon for that section shows two eyes, and there are hundreds of examples that teach you to recognize the difference between real eyes and false eyes. Pros: Fun to use. Problems are organized by category and are presented in order, from easy to more advanced. Cons: No written instructions. Although there are hundreds of free problems, access to the full site is by paid subscription. --- Falling in Love with Baduk: Play a Game in One Week http://agfgo.org/downloads/LoveBaduk.pdf This free 240-page eBook has simple chapters to explain each new concept, followed by short tests to check your understanding. The value is in actually doing the problems before reading the answers. Since I didn't want to print the tests, I would take a screenshot of each test page and import it into a whiteboard app to mark it up. (I used Whiteboard Lite for iPad.) The errata file is here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?FallingInLoveWithBaduk Pros: This course is well thought out. New chapters build on previous ones. It uses an effective learning method. Cons: This eBook is not interactive. The text, translated from Korean, repeatedly uses the term "dansoo" rather than the more familiar "atari." --- Go Game Guru: Learn Go the Easy Way https://gogameguru.com/learn-go-easy-way-go-game-1/ https://gogameguru.com/learn-go-easy-way-go-game-2/ https://gogameguru.com/learn-go-easy-way-go-game-3/ These lessons are clear and well written. Sometimes it helps to have the same concepts explained in a different way, and these pages are particularly easy to understand. The third lesson covers double atari, nets, and ladders. Pros: Nice writing style, enjoyable to read. Cons: There might be more lessons available on this site, but I am guessing you need to sign up for weekly emails to find them. --- 321Go http://321go.org/home/ This free Dutch site offers an entire curriculum to study. Click on the tiny UK flag for the English translation. The first steps are easy going. I have stalled in the middle, but I hope to eventually finish it. Pros: This site is more ambitious than most other tutorials, and it includes more advanced study. But if you stick with it, it will track your improvement over time. Cons: Graphics are small and low resolution. Even on the English pages, some alerts show up in Dutch. There are no answers, which can be frustrating when you can't solve a specific problem. --- OGS Puzzles Mark5000's Exercises for Beginners https://online-go.com/puzzle/2625 Francisa's Library https://online-go.com/puzzle/5 The advantage of both collections is that the authors have taken the time to explain the right and wrong answers. These puzzle sets are a bit challenging for anyone just starting out, but the explanations are valuable. If you get stuck and can't solve a specific puzzle to get the Next button, click on the puzzle name in the upper right for a drop-down list. Pros: These two puzzle sets have good text, explaining why a specific move either works or doesn't. Cons: For the OGS Puzzles section in general, a "Hint" button would be nice, for the times when I have no clue how to solve a problem. --- Learn Go http://www.learngo.co.uk/GoTutor/Tutor.php When you are ready to make the leap from smaller boards and move up to 19x19, this tutor is a smart next step. Most beginner sites focus on 9x9 or small sections of a larger board. Learn Go shows you how to approach 19x19, teaching you to look at the full board. On page 2, when the tutorial started talking about the board in terms of land surrounded by water, I wasn't holding out much hope for the rest of the course. I was wrong. There is a lot of useful information here. Pros: Learn Go includes elementary strategy and tactics for 19x19 games that many other beginner sites don't mention. Cons: It is missing an introduction that explains what level student would benefit most, as well as a quick summary of the content so that you know what to expect.

Author:	DrStraw [ Tue May 03, 2016 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Way2go learns Go
If you want to play look me up on DGS.

Author:	way2go [ Wed May 04, 2016 6:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Way2go learns Go
DrStraw wrote: If you want to play look me up on DGS. That's a generous offer. Thanks so much. I haven't played on DGS yet, but I will check it out over the weekend. (Wish I could like a post more than once. )

Author:	way2go [ Mon May 09, 2016 11:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Way2go learns Go
way2go wrote: LESSON PLANS 1. Start the 7-yr-old on 5x5 Capture Go. 2. Start the 10-yr-old on 7x7 Capture Go. 3. Play some 9x9 games with the 14-yr-old, who can already beat me sometimes at 9x9 Capture Go. ... So far, this has not gone exactly according to plan . They all really enjoy playing Capture Go, which is great . However, they don't like the idea of handicap stones, even though I have tried explaining handicaps in two different ways. They all are competitive and want to beat me in even games. Second, none of them want to play a normal game. The oldest can win against me at Capture Go, but loses at a regular 9x9 even game. Consequently, she only wants to continue playing Capture Go. My question is whether to keep playing Capture Go and hope that one or more of them will eventually be interested in the real game, or would it be best to simply set it aside for a month or two and try real games again later? Edit: This is the method I'm following: http://www.usgo.org/capture-game-teaching-method . Quote: Some teachers just jump ahead into regular go after the students have played first capture go enough to become familiar with placing the stones and paying attention to liberties. The kids are at this stage. They understand counting liberties and how to capture.

Life In 19x19 http://prod.lifein19x19.com/

Way2go learns Go http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=13154	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Bill Spight [ Mon May 09, 2016 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Way2go learns Go
way2go wrote: way2go wrote: LESSON PLANS 1. Start the 7-yr-old on 5x5 Capture Go. 2. Start the 10-yr-old on 7x7 Capture Go. 3. Play some 9x9 games with the 14-yr-old, who can already beat me sometimes at 9x9 Capture Go. ... So far, this has not gone exactly according to plan . They all really enjoy playing Capture Go, which is great . However, they don't like the idea of handicap stones, even though I have tried explaining handicaps in two different ways. They all are competitive and want to beat me in even games. Second, none of them want to play a normal game. The oldest can win against me at Capture Go, but loses at a regular 9x9 even game. Consequently, she only wants to continue playing Capture Go. My question is whether to keep playing Capture Go and hope that one or more of them will eventually be interested in the real game, or would it be best to simply set it aside for a month or two and try real games again later? It's a game! If they enjoy playing capture go but not real go, why not play capture go? Have you tried Capture-2? You can increase the number of stones that the winner has to capture. The more stones they have to capture, the closer the game is to regular go. Also, you can use the number of stones to capture as a handicap system. Like komi. Try changing it after each game. If you play even and White wins, the next time require White to capture two stones while Black only has to capture one stone. Etc. BTW, I have a friend who refuses to take a handicap from me. Playing him was not much fun for either of us. Finally I thought of the capture game, and we are pretty evenly matched in the capture game if he takes Black on the 7x7.

Author:	way2go [ Mon May 09, 2016 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Way2go learns Go
Those are excellent suggestions, Bill. We will try that. We had just been playing that the first person to capture any number of stones won. Now that you have explained how to structure it, I think that will work better. I'll forget about explaining eyes and territory for now and we'll just enjoy playing. Thanks!

Author:	EdLee [ Mon May 09, 2016 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:
way2go wrote: I'll forget about explaining eyes and territory If they discover eyes naturally by themselves, great.

Author:	EdLee [ Mon May 09, 2016 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: I have a friend who refuses to take a handicap from me. Playing him was not much fun for either of us. From anecdotal evidence (various venues), apparently this occurs more frequently than I thought. The why may be an interesting discussion.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Tue May 10, 2016 2:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Way2go learns Go
way2go wrote: Those are excellent suggestions, Bill. We will try that. We had just been playing that the first person to capture any number of stones won. Now that you have explained how to structure it, I think that will work better. I'll forget about explaining eyes and territory for now and we'll just enjoy playing. Thanks! The idea of territory emerges naturally in the capture game. You may like this topic: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11857 You might also like this Capture Game problem. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play and win $$ --------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X O . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . X X X X . . \| $$ \| . X O O . . . \| $$ \| . O . . . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------[/go]`

Author:	way2go [ Tue May 10, 2016 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Way2go learns Go
My first instinct was to go after the lower stones, so this took me a while to solve. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play and win $$ --------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X O 2 O . \| $$ \| . . . . 1 3 . \| $$ \| . X X X X . . \| $$ \| . X O O . . . \| $$ \| . O . . . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play and win $$ --------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 5 X O . O . \| $$ \| . 4 2 3 1 . . \| $$ \| . X X X X . . \| $$ \| . X O O . . . \| $$ \| . O . . . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` I hadn't thought about Capture Go as a category of problems before. There are a couple of problem sets at http://www.101weiqi.com/questionlib/ that have the word "capture" in their translated titles. They could probably be considered as Capture Go problem sets for beginners.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Tue May 10, 2016 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Way2go learns Go
way2go wrote: My first instinct was to go after the lower stones, so this took me a while to solve. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play and win $$ --------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X O 2 O . \| $$ \| . . . . 1 3 . \| $$ \| . X X X X . . \| $$ \| . X O O . . . \| $$ \| . O . . . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play and win $$ --------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 5 X O . O . \| $$ \| . 4 2 3 1 . . \| $$ \| . X X X X . . \| $$ \| . X O O . . . \| $$ \| . O . . . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` I hadn't thought about Capture Go as a category of problems before. There are a couple of problem sets at http://www.101weiqi.com/questionlib/ that have the word "capture" in their translated titles. They could probably be considered as Capture Go problem sets for beginners. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play and win $$ --------------- $$ \| . . . 5 6 C C \| $$ \| . . X O 2 O 4 \| $$ \| . . . . 1 3 . \| $$ \| . X X X X . . \| $$ \| . X O O . . . \| $$ \| . O . . . O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` White is dead in regular go, but the two point eye is alive in the capture game, because Black would have to sacrifice one stone in order to capture the group. The group is dead in capture-2. The capture game is not so easy.

Author:	way2go [ Tue May 10, 2016 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Way2go learns Go
Ah! That means there is a better answer. Anyone else want to give it a try?

Author:	jeromie [ Tue May 10, 2016 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Way2go learns Go
I was talking about discovering wrong instincts in another thread. I definitely see that in the capture game! Here's my attempt: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play and win $$ --------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X O a O 5 \| $$ \| . . . . 4 3 . \| $$ \| . X X X X . . \| $$ \| . X O O . 1 . \| $$ \| . O . . 2 O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` 1 is a forcing move that threatens to capture the lower stone. 2 defends against the threat 3 threatens the top group 4 shows why 1 was necessary. If you don't move on the bottom first, this is a forcing move that lets white connect and get that vital two point eye space. If 4 is at 5, 5 can be at a and still prevents the two point eye space. 5 is the killing move. Capture is inevitable.

Page 1 of 1	All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/

Author:	Bill Spight [ Tue May 10, 2016 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Way2go learns Go
jeromie wrote: I was talking about discovering wrong instincts in another thread. I definitely see that in the capture game! Here's my attempt: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play and win $$ --------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X O a O 5 \| $$ \| . . . . 4 3 . \| $$ \| . X X X X . . \| $$ \| . X O O . 1 . \| $$ \| . O . . 2 O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` 1 is a forcing move that threatens to capture the lower stone. 2 defends against the threat 3 threatens the top group 4 shows why 1 was necessary. If you don't move on the bottom first, this is a forcing move that lets white connect and get that vital two point eye space. If 4 is at 5, 5 can be at a and still prevents the two point eye space. 5 is the killing move. Capture is inevitable. Well done, jeromie! This little problem was intended to show that the capture game is not just about chasing down stones or building bigger territories. The ease of making life means that the capture game is more strategical than regular go on small boards like the 7x7. In regular go the top group can be killed by cutting it off. But in capture go Black kills it by making a leaning attack against the White stone in the bottom right. The leaning attack is a strategical concept. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B White lives $$ --------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X O . O a \| $$ \| . . . . 2 1 4 \| $$ \| . X X X X 5 . \| $$ \| . X O O . 3 . \| $$ \| . O . . 6 W . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` is a direct attack against the top White group. protects and threatens . But now puts in atari, forcing before protecting with . Now Black cannot play at "a" and the White group is alive.