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middle of the month slump
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Author:  stalkor [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  middle of the month slump
It has become a regular thing in the league to see the league kick of very hard with the first 10 days a lot of games being played. after that there are about 10 days in which barely ppl play followed by an end of the month frenzy in the last 10 days.

So, i'm wondering this question: "Why haven't you played in the middle of the month?"

Also i would like to open the discussion on HOW we can possibly change this behaviour in the league so games can be played more evenly throughout the month.
Author:  Redundant [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: middle of the month slump
This was just a one time thing, but I got hit with a train in the form of classes. Otherwise, I probably would have been on much more.
Author:  oren [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: middle of the month slump
I got into a group this month which only has opponents online for me on weekends. It seems only one or two other people in my group are on in my time zone. It's just luck of the draw.
Author:  Mark356 [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: middle of the month slump
Simple: The opening is very important, since it determines, to some extent, how the middlegame fighting will go; and the large yose is also very important, since it determines the point balance. A lack of emphasis on the middle game is not surprising. :P

But, yes, most of the people in my league tend not to be online at the same time, and even when we are, there's no telling that both of us want to play a league game. Plus, I finished all of my games with the couple of other people who are online all the time long ago. So for me, playing more is just a matter of waiting and crossing my fingers. (This is why I wanted to join the League again under a different username.) I'd guess that the people who are still interested in the League will realize that the month is running out soon.
Author:  cdybeijing [ Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: middle of the month slump
Sorry, I can't offer much insight. I live in Asia; I'm online every night for several hours, and there are only ever the same 1-2 people online from my group of 19 players.

It's been a huge hassle for me so far to get games in the league.
Author:  daal [ Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: middle of the month slump
I've already played most of my games against the people who tend to be online at the same times that I tend to be online. In order for me to get in more games, I have to go online at times when it is inconvenient i.e., late at night. I won't do that unless I see a danger of getting bumped - which usually becomes evident towards the end of the month.

I don't know how it would be done, but I'm in favor of some sort of time-zone/availability sorting. Usagi?
Author:  LovroKlc [ Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: middle of the month slump
how about sorting people in groups according to time-zones?
Author:  stalkor [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: middle of the month slump
january
1: 113 games
2: 112 games
3: 94 games
4: 81 games
5: 77 games
6: 84 games
7: 71 games
8: 92 games
9: 100 games
10: 53 games
11: 62 games
12: 42 games
13: 55 games
14: 71 games
15: 60 games
16: 70 games
17: 48 games
18: 44 games
19: 27 games

maybe its a matter of how you ask for games, i can understand that when youre online and you see an opponent you play them but how about finding the ones who you dont see often?

there are a few ways to actively search for league games
- pm when theyre online
- advertise a league game in the room
- leave a message asking when the opponent can play (aka setting a date and time)
- filling your info with information about where you live/when youre able to play

also i understand the players in epsilon can have a bigger problem in finding games. this is because new players are not active players, thats why we have a pool of 20 players in the lowest class.

the timezoning thing leaves us another problem. if you put players in timezones in the lowest part of the league, whenever you rise up the league you will encounter this problem again, so does it fix the availability issue? i think not (sorry).
Author:  LovroKlc [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: middle of the month slump
stalkor wrote:
january
1: 113 games
2: 112 games
3: 94 games
4: 81 games
5: 77 games
6: 84 games
7: 71 games
8: 92 games
9: 100 games
10: 53 games
11: 62 games
12: 42 games
13: 55 games
14: 71 games
15: 60 games
16: 70 games
17: 48 games
18: 44 games
19: 27 games

maybe its a matter of how you ask for games, i can understand that when youre online and you see an opponent you play them but how about finding the ones who you dont see often?

there are a few ways to actively search for league games
- pm when theyre online
- advertise a league game in the room
- leave a message asking when the opponent can play (aka setting a date and time)
- filling your info with information about where you live/when youre able to play

also i understand the players in epsilon can have a bigger problem in finding games. this is because new players are not active players, thats why we have a pool of 20 players in the lowest class.

the timezoning thing leaves us another problem. if you put players in timezones in the lowest part of the league, whenever you rise up the league you will encounter this problem again, so does it fix the availability issue? i think not (sorry).


it helps it in epislon, where the biggest problem is
Author:  jts [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: middle of the month slump
Over the course of the month (i) commanding point leads are built up, which decreases the importance of any specific victory, (ii) you quickly play games with all the people in your league who are frequently on KGS at the same time as you, so further games with them are less valuable, and the other people are never available.

I'm vaguely willing to play my league-mates all the time, but at the beginning of the month I would inconvenience myself to get in a league game, and now I won't. I get the sense that they feel the same way, since I can't convince them to play me when I find it convenient.

If you want to increase the number of games played, make the leagues larger, make the drop off in points smaller, or make the period for competition shorter (say, every two weeks rather than every month). Each of these options has drawbacks, of course.

Making leagues larger might not increase the percentage of possible games played, because larger leagues have factorially more games possible, but I assume you care about absolute number of games played.

Sorting by time zones is a silly idea, since when people can play isn't necessarily connected to their time zone.
Author:  daal [ Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: middle of the month slump
jts wrote:
Sorting by time zones is a silly idea
I disagree.
Quote:
since when people can play isn't necessarily connected to their time zone.


All (100%, 10 out of 10) of the league games I have gotten in this month have been against people who live on the same continent as I do. Although availability is not entirely dependent on one's time zone, there is a general if not pervasive tendency to sleep at night (be definitely not available) and be awake during the daytime (be potentially available). While sorting players based on their time availability would be even better, I suspect it would be a good deal more difficult for the organizers than sorting by time zone.

My subjective opinion, that more games would be played if players were sorted by time zones, is based on my experience in the league. I think that it would be worthwhile to poll league members to see to what extent others have a similar experience. For example, ask the question: What percentage of your games were played against people who live on the your continent or in the same time zone?

As for Stalkor's objection that the time zone sorting would fall apart in the higher echelons of the league, it seems to me that for the supergroup and for Alpha and perhaps also Beta time sorting would not be possible, and their situation would remain exactly as it is now. For the rest of the league, the situation would improve.
Author:  oren [ Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: middle of the month slump
I pretty much agree with Daal's points. Except on weekends where I can play in the morning, I can only play two other players in my group this month.

It looks like I'll be dropping out again. ASR is a fun idea but without more players in Delta or at least more in the time zones around me, it's very difficult for me to get the games needed. Epsilon wasn't so bad since there were more players, and it balanced out.
Author:  jts [ Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: middle of the month slump
daal wrote:
jts wrote:
Sorting by time zones is a silly idea
I disagree.


"Silly" was too strong. But, pace you and Oren, only some, rather than all, players in a time zone will keep similar schedules, and they'll only keep them part of the time. This is, at best, a partial fix. The people in my league don't seem to keep any schedule at all, much less one that could be predicted by where they live. And any sort of explicit sorting makes it possible for leagues to stratify at different levels of skill, which doesn't seem particularly fair. Expanding the size of the leagues captures all of the benefits of time zone leagues (and more, since you would also be able to play with foreigners who keep odd hours) with fewer drawbacks, no?
Author:  oren [ Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: middle of the month slump
jts wrote:
Expanding the size of the leagues captures all of the benefits of time zone leagues (and more, since you would also be able to play with foreigners who keep odd hours) with fewer drawbacks, no?


Yes, I was able to get games more often in Epsilon since there were more people. There were still half I couldn't play at all easily, but many more were on when I was.
Author:  stalkor [ Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: middle of the month slump
sorting ppl by availability is an option to consider yes but keeping tabs on 450 players when they are available to play is something i would not like doing very much :)

also a lot of players i talk to say they dont actually have a set time to play, so their availability is random and very hard to deal with.

Also ive had many complaints that a possible 39 games is too high and having larger classes would result in a fight over who is insane enough to play every possible game:)
so making larger classes is not an option i think
Author:  daal [ Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: middle of the month slump
stalkor wrote:
also a lot of players i talk to say they don't actually have a set time to play, so their availability is random and very hard to deal with.


But they do know when they tend to be asleep or awake.
Author:  stalkor [ Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: middle of the month slump
so how would i cope with unbalanced classes or players who sign up to classes that are full in his availabiilty?
It can surely happen that a bunch of strong 4d friends from asia sign up and wind up in the same class(ignoring the 1d seeding in delta since it is full by the time league starts). Ultimately, wouldnt it result in unfairness in the lowest layer?

Btw, saying when you are asleep is actually creating a 16 hour availibility schedule.
Author:  Gabalon [ Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: middle of the month slump
20 :P
Author:  daal [ Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: middle of the month slump
stalkor wrote:
so how would i cope with unbalanced classes or players who sign up to classes that are full in his availabiilty?


I hadn't thought about this, and you're right. It would be a problem.
Author:  teach [ Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: middle of the month slump
Admins could crunch data and seed 'weekend warriors' in the same classes.

Timezone grouping is a bad idea. The best case is to have groups evenly spread across all zones, random.
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