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geometry problem ( that nagged me ) http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4609 |
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Author: | cyclops [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:12 am ] |
Post subject: | geometry problem ( that nagged me ) |
You have four points in a plane and one euro. The euro cannot cover all four points ( at once, OC ). Prove that this euro cannot cover some three of these points. ( for the blessed among us : the euro is a coin in the form of a circle. Shrinking too fast, though) |
Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:22 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: geometry problem ( that nagged me ) |
Is there some additional constraint? It seems relatively easy to put 3 points in a plane that can be covered by a circle, with one far away. Perhaps the plane is a square the same size as the coin? Edit: nah, even that doesn't help. |
Author: | entropi [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:22 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: geometry problem ( that nagged me ) |
cyclops wrote: You have four points in a plane and one euro. The euro cannot cover all four points ( at once, OC ). Prove that this euro cannot cover some three of these points. ( for the blessed among us : the euro is a coin in the form of a circle. Shrinking too fast, though) As the question is formulated, it cannot be proven because the euro can cover some three of these points even if the fourth point is too far away to be covered. But are there some constraints for the locations of the four points in the plane??? |
Author: | Tryss [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:32 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: geometry problem ( that nagged me ) |
I believe you should read it as : "Prove that this euro cannot cover every group of 3 points" |
Author: | Laman [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:35 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: geometry problem ( that nagged me ) |
daniel_the_smith, entropi: i understand it differently - you have four points in a plane, their only property is that they cant be all covered by a single unit circle. prove that among these four points exists at least one group of three points that has the same property EDIT: too late, Tryss wrote it first |
Author: | jts [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:03 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: geometry problem ( that nagged me ) |
Author: | HermanHiddema [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:05 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: geometry problem ( that nagged me ) |
If a set of points is entirely within a certain circle of radius X, then the distance between any two of them is at most 2X. Conversely, if a set of point is not entirely within some circle of radius X, then there exist at least two points within the set whose mutual distance is larger then 2X. The given set of four points therefore contains at least two points whose mutual distance is larger than the diameter of the euro coin. Those two points cannot, therefore, be covered simultaneously by the euro coin. Given that there exists at least one set of two points that cannot simultaneously be covered, there also exist at least two sets of three points that cannot be covered by said euro coin. |
Author: | emeraldemon [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:22 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: geometry problem ( that nagged me ) |
HermanHiddema wrote: Conversely, if a set of point is not entirely within some circle of radius X, then there exist at least two points within the set whose mutual distance is larger then 2X. I don't think this is true. Imagine a triangle, then the smallest circle containing that triangle. Unless the points are colinear, the largest distance between two of the points will be less than 2*radius. So if you increase the distance of those two points a tiny bit, you will have 3 points that cannot fit in the circle of that radius, but the distance is still less than 2*radius. Unless I'm misunderstanding, jts's method has the same flaw. |
Author: | Tryss [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:25 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: geometry problem ( that nagged me ) |
Quote: Conversely, if a set of point is not entirely within some circle of radius X, then there exist at least two points within the set whose mutual distance is larger then 2X. This is wrong: |
Author: | cyclops [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: geometry problem ( that nagged me ) |
Laman wrote: daniel_the_smith, entropi: i understand it differently - you have four points in a plane, their only property is that they cant be all covered by a single unit circle. prove that among these four points exists at least one group of three points that has the same property EDIT: too late, Tryss wrote it first thx, Laman and Tryss: you both restated the problem correctly. |
Author: | Li Kao [ Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:30 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: geometry problem ( that nagged me ) |
One interesting observation is that this is not true for 4 points in 3D. (A Tetraeder violates this). My impression is that a square is the shape that comes closest to violating this rule, but it holds even for it. But how to prove that... |
Author: | entropi [ Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:54 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: geometry problem ( that nagged me ) |
Li Kao wrote: One interesting observation is that this is not true for 4 points in 3D. (A Tetraeder violates this). Likewise, it is also not true for 3 points in 2D because a triangle violates it (see emeraldemon's post above). cyclops, do you have an answer for the question? Apparently it is not as easy as it looks. |
Author: | cyclops [ Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:15 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: geometry problem ( that nagged me ) |
entropi wrote: cyclops, do you have an answer for the question? Apparently it is not as easy as it looks. I got it from the book I mentioned in my previous thread about math problem. There are hints in it. I intend to publish asap. Also there are answers. I'll publish it as soon as the discussion here fades out. I didn't read the hint or solution yet. Although I am very curious! I took this problem with me on my holiday trip, trekking in the Alps. I must say I got a little bit frustrated. Trying to solve it in my head didn't work. edit: maybe some people doubt the preposition. In that case it should be easy find a counterexample. One is enough. |
Author: | perceval [ Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:54 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: geometry problem ( that nagged me ) |
Author: | cyclops [ Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:23 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: geometry problem ( that nagged me ) |
I hided the book for myself, but found it again. "The green book of mathematical problems" by Kenneth Hardy and Kenneth S. Williams, 1985, ISBN 0-486-69573-5 (pbk). Definition: A unit disk is a disk of unit radius. That is its radius is 1. Problem 88: ( As stated in the book). If four distint points lie in the plane such that any three of them can be covered by a unit disk then all four points can be covered by a unit disk. Hint, if you use it please hide your solution for a few days |
Author: | perceval [ Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: geometry problem ( that nagged me ) |
maybe i got it: hint: proposed solution/ |
Author: | cyclops [ Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: geometry problem ( that nagged me ) |
perceval wrote: maybe i got it: Congratulations. You are too clever for my problems. I doubt there is a more elegant solution. It is the solution of the book. For the missing link see: Edit: oops, corrected two terrible grammatical errors. Shame on me. |
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