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Kim Jong Il
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5171		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  nagano [ Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Kim Jong Il
Kim Jong Il has died. I hope there will be an opportunity for reunification, or that at least the situation of the people will improve.
Author:  rubin427 [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kim Jong Il
Very serious topic, so I won't comment lightly.

But, I'll certainly be keeping an eye on events in the Korean Peninsula over the next few days/weeks/months.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kim Jong Il
[admin]
It seems inevitable that this discussion will turn to politics, which is, of course, in violation of the term of service. But this, IMHO, is one of the instances where the TOS prohibition on politics should be overlooked, for the politics of N Korea will directly affect go.
I can't speak for other mods/admins, but I'm going to be really lax about enforcing the TOS in this thread as long as nobody gets contoversial or insulting.
[/admin]
Author:  hyperpape [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kim Jong Il
I think Kim Jong-un, the heir apparent, seems to be in his father's mold in very many ways. So I wouldn't count on him governing all that differently.

As for a collapse, no one in the international community wants that (for better or worse).

So I could be wrong, but I'd expect things to continue on their current path.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kim Jong Il
hyperpape wrote:
I think Kim Jong-un, the heir apparent, seems to be in his father's mold in very many ways. So I wouldn't count on him governing all that differently. ...


True, but is it real, or just an act? He went to school in Switzerland, where he was almost certainly exposed to many western ideas. Suppose Kim Jong-Un had significantly different views than his father. It might not be healthy to express them.

He has many potential competitors. He has leapfrogged the majority of the officers in the military, which should cause some jealosy even among the most loyal. He has two elder brothers ( eldest half-brother, Kim Jong-nam, had been the successor, but lost that status when he got caught trying to use a fake passport to visit Disneyland in Tokyo. ) He also has an aunt and an uncle who are politically involved, and who might resent a possible loss of power.

In such a situation, the safest course would be to follow in father's footsteps while father is alive, so as to ensure the stable patronage of father's followers when father dies. Once he secures power and gets the continued public support of his potential competitors, then would be the time to make changes - if he had a mind to do so. But for the short term, a prudent man would stay the course, regardless of his long term intentions.
Author:  tchan001 [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kim Jong Il
Wonder if North Korea will continue to devote resources to researching computer go AI.
http://www.koreaittimes.com/story/12367 ... o-software
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kim Jong Il
The new leader has problems that can be loosely grouped into two categories: coups by individuals or small groups, and general insurrection by the citizenry.

To deal with coups, the safest course, as mentioned above, would be to maintain the patronage of father's supporters. To prevent general insurrections, he would do best to raise the general standards of living. ( History shows that in virtually any country the peasants do not revolt if they see their lot getting better. ) In the current situation, simply having enough food would be an improvement for many N Korean citizens.

There are numerous but vague reports that a food-for-nukes deal had been brokered while father was still alive, and signed while the corpse was still warm. it involves something around a quarter million tons of food from the US in return for N Korea suspending enriched uranium production. ( There are contradictory reports on this around the web, so details are uncertain )

If this is true, then new leader is on the right course, IMHO.
Author:  Kirby [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kim Jong Il
If we ignore the no-politics rule here due to the effect North Korea has on go, should discussion be limited to that aspect?
Author:  jts [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kim Jong Il
Why do we think this would affect the world of go? Seoul becoming a bowl of fire?

Or perhaps a misunderstanding after Kim Jong-Un tells his generals to research a good invasion of the Chinese?
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kim Jong Il
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
[admin]
It seems inevitable that this discussion will turn to politics, which is, of course, in violation of the term of service. But this, IMHO, is one of the instances where the TOS prohibition on politics should be overlooked, for the politics of N Korea will directly affect go.
I can't speak for other mods/admins, but I'm going to be really lax about enforcing the TOS in this thread as long as nobody gets contoversial or insulting.
[/admin]


Hm, I need a "troll" emoticon...

In that case, maybe I can make a thread arguing that the "hand of god" is achivable only by deities capable of logically impossible acts! :twisted:
Author:  Javaness2 [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kim Jong Il
Pepper Spray
Author:  Suji [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kim Jong Il
I think that North and South Koreans both view themselves as "Koreans", so I hope that they can be unified again. On an unrelated note, South Korea doesn't need any help dominating the Go world.
Author:  Kirby [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kim Jong Il
Suji wrote:
I think that North and South Koreans both view themselves as "Koreans", so I hope that they can be unified again. On an unrelated note, South Korea doesn't need any help dominating the Go world.


I think that unification is controversial in south korea, just as in other parts of the world.
Author:  Suji [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kim Jong Il
Kirby wrote:
I think that unification is controversial in south korea, just as in other parts of the world.


Unfortunately, you may be right.
Author:  tapir [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kim Jong Il
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
He went to school in Switzerland, where he was almost certainly exposed to many western ideas. Suppose Kim Jong-Un had significantly different views than his father. It might not be healthy to express them.


Western Ideas are seriously overrated. To my knowledge his father too was pretty much exposed to western ideas and liquors, this doesn't make him less of a dictator. I mean, where does this irrational love for reformer-dictators who saw school in Switzerland or studied at the LSE come from?
Author:  hyperpape [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kim Jong Il
tapir wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
He went to school in Switzerland, where he was almost certainly exposed to many western ideas. Suppose Kim Jong-Un had significantly different views than his father. It might not be healthy to express them.


Western Ideas are seriously overrated. To my knowledge his father too was pretty much exposed to western ideas and liquors, this doesn't make him less of a dictator. I mean, where does this irrational love for reformer-dictators who saw school in Switzerland or studied at the LSE come from?
For me, the contrast is "not North-Korean". Japan would do just as well as Switzerland (heck, Chinese education would be liberal and open-minded in comparison to North Korea). Obviously there are many authoritarians who went to school in the West and got nothing out of it. But it's at least exposure to something outside of the North Korean ideology.
Author:  nagano [ Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kim Jong Il
Unfortunately, Kim Jong Eun's profile in the Wall Street Journal reminds me of Ivan the Terrible.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kim Jong Il
CNN wrote:
North Korea will admit delegations from the South that wish to visit Pyongyang to express their condolences following the death of the leader Kim Jong Il, according to a statement posted on a government website run by the North.
...
After Pyongyang announced on Monday the death of Kim, the dictator who had ruled the secretive dictatorship since 1994, Seoul has made a number of gestures as it tries to navigate the uncertainty created by the North's leadership transition...
Seoul expressed its sympathy to the North Korean people through a statement on Tuesday. South Korea also said that while it would not send an official delegation to the North, it would allow a limited number of private groups to send delegations to the North if desired...

The recent moves have been considered a break from the hardline approach to the North that President Lee Myung-bak of South Korea had taken since coming into office in 2008. They contrast with Seoul's reaction to the death of North Korea's founder, Kim Il Sung, in 1994 when the conservative South Korean government at the time did not offer its condolences.
Author:  Elfie85 [ Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kim Jong Il
Alright its 11 am currently in N. Korea...

Its almost time for that "special" broadcast...

I am highly interested in what it will be about....

Considering the current state of politics around the world...

and the ever looming doom of economic collapse...

What is N. Korea up to now?!
Author:  TKP [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kim Jong Il
I think if you asked the Korean people on both the north and south sides of the Demilitarized Zone (one of the most highly militarized places on earth) the answer would be reunification. The handful of Korean people I know through playing go have family on both sides.
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