Kirby's Study Journal

Kirby · **#381**

Thanks for the comments, Bill. I agree about the bad shape with the group on the right. I wanted to avoid playing slowly, but your hane does, indeed, seem more natural.

Kirby · **#382**

rat4000 wrote:

Bill, I've got a question: you say "really?" on :w8:

, but it's joseki as far as I know and doesn't seem worse than anything else in this position. Why don't you like it? (Of course, the joseki responses to :b9:

don't include tenuki.)

Also, a question for Kirby: were you trying to avoid the Kobayashi fuseki by approaching immediately? If so, why not just pincer?

Yes, the idea is to avoid Kobayashi fuseki - pincering is another option. This particular opening is one I've been trying, since I learned it from In-seong from the AYD. He talks about pincering as an option, too. But I like this one better.

However, I think it's correct to say that I've made a mistake - I should have not tenuki'd from :b9:

. I now seem to recall making a similar mistake from one of my AYD games, and I think he commented on it. It's not a part of the "main line" Inseong discussed, so I guess it shows that I haven't mastered this opening, yet.

Bill Spight · **#383**

rat4000 wrote:

Bill, I've got a question: you say "really?" on :w8:

, but it's joseki as far as I know and doesn't seem worse than anything else in this position. Why don't you like it?

Yeah, it's joseki, but what does it accomplish? What was so important that White did not respond to the approach in the bottom left corner? A three space extension on the right side? Really? That doesn't seem lame to you?

Kirby · **#384**

Bill Spight wrote:

rat4000 wrote:

Bill, I've got a question: you say "really?" on :w8:

, but it's joseki as far as I know and doesn't seem worse than anything else in this position. Why don't you like it?

Yeah, it's joseki, but what does it accomplish? What was so important that White did not respond to the approach in the bottom left corner? A three space extension on the right side? Really? That doesn't seem lame to you?

Thanks...

Anyway, Inseong doesn't seem to think it's lame (though he may have thought my tenuki to :b9:

was lame). Responding to the bottom left corner is fine, too. The strategy of ignoring the approach and approaching the 3-4 yourself is in order to play quickly. Since black plays first, it's black's job to "do something" (e.g. Kobayashi sets up a position for black). If white can prevent black from "doing something", and can play fast around the board, the komi will give him the edge.

rat4000 · **#385**

Bill: I wouldn't play :w6:

precisely because I think black's approach is important. (Then again, apparently I'm wrong, if Inseong recommended it.) It just seems to me that after :w6:

is played white is forced to reply on the right -- rushing back to the lower left seems to be the worse of the two options.

Uberdude · **#386**

Kobayashi is good for white with large komi, let black do it ;-)

Kirby · **#387**

rat4000 wrote:

Then again, apparently I'm wrong, if Inseong recommended it.

I'm not saying this at all. I am just saying that I am trying to practice an opening that Inseong taught. Part of this practice is learning what to do when the opponent deviates, and I'm still learning that part.

Even pros probably have different preferences in the opening. It doesn't mean that anyone is "wrong". What is important is to have a strategy. I think that answering the bottom left is a viable strategy. I also think that approaching the bottom right is a viable strategy. I also think pincering the approach to the bottom left is viable. What matters is how you follow up (and I could have done better at follow up after :b9:

).

Same thing is true for black. If there were a "silver bullet opening", all pros would play it.

Bill Spight · **#388**

Kirby wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

rat4000 wrote:

Bill, I've got a question: you say "really?" on :w8:

, but it's joseki as far as I know and doesn't seem worse than anything else in this position. Why don't you like it?

Yeah, it's joseki, but what does it accomplish? What was so important that White did not respond to the approach in the bottom left corner? A three space extension on the right side? Really? That doesn't seem lame to you?

Thanks...

Anyway, Inseong doesn't seem to think it's lame (though he may have thought my tenuki to :b9:

was lame). Responding to the bottom left corner is fine, too. The strategy of ignoring the approach and approaching the 3-4 yourself is in order to play quickly.

The thing is, I don't think of :w8:

as speedy play. But apparently it is played.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm5 Low and slow? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 3 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is not something I would tend to play, so I have not thought much about it. But :w8:

cedes the initiative to Black, and is low, not challenging either the top right star point or :b7:

for the high ground on the right. The keima comes to mind.

In terms of speed, can White be satisfied with having prevented an enclosure in the bottom right corner? If so, then. . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Wedge $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 2 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . a 3 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The wedge looks interesting. It foils Black's plans to develop the bottom side. But, OC, it leaves the :w6:

stone vulnerable to attack. BTW, it is also joseki.

The three space pincer at "a" is also a possibility.

Kirby · **#389**

Kids were napping today, so I played another game on KGS.

I was so lucky this game. There were two big reasons things went sour:
* I didn't read carefully, and just played moves a few times.
* Again, I repeated the habit I have of "going for 200%", as In-seong pointed out. Like other reviews I posted on here, I made multiple weak groups by invading the bottom left corner.

Anyway, here is my review.

Kirby · **#390**

Problem areas.

Position 1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . W , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think this is silly, because it gives him, not me, the chance to make a good strategy. I think his pincer worked fine with his approach.

I should just play normally with either this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . W . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

With the sample variations I gave in the SGF, I think both of these are simpler, and have a fine result for white.

So of course, the following led to a bad result for me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . 2 . . . . 1 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Why can't I just play in a normal way?

Position 2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 24 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . X . W . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think the marked move is greedy and hasty. It can lead to the situation of having two weak groups, given my weak two stones on the right.

I should simply strengthen that potentially weak group, while reducing black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 24 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's calmer. Of course, black can play 'a', and he gets a nice shape, but now I can feel more free to invade, since I no longer have a weak group.

I don't know for 100% that this is a better way of playing, but it seems better to me after the game. It's the kind of way I would never play during the game.

Position 3

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 31 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , W . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . X . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Potentially the game losing move, and perhaps trademark of my style these days. I should *not* go for making multiple weak groups. This potentially makes three weak groups:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 31 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . W . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . W . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , W . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . X . W . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's impatient. I think this is what In-seong means when he says I go for "200%", but at a big risk. I'm trying to take all of the territory, enduring the fact that I might come under attack later.

Instead, again, I think I should simply strengthen my group:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 31 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , a . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . X . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Simpler, and there's still aji around 'a', anyway. Plus, his three stones in the center are not yet clearly alive, either.

Why didn't I play here?

There are several other mistakes I made, but these are the big ones that stick out to me.

---

Learning points.

1. Again... Again... Again... DO NOT MAKE MULTIPLE WEAK GROUPS!!!!

Uberdude · **#391**

Nothing wrong with approaching the top right, indeed it's the most common pro move in that position and has a good win rate. It's the pincer after his pincer that's problematic. You go into an area you made smaller and harder by exchanging the approach for a pincer.

Bill Spight · **#392**

Some comments on the early play.

Loons · **#393**

I found this position interesting:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 24 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . b c . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . X . o . p . X a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

On similarish boards, professionals tried a-d in my database. My instinct was to start at 'p' instead of 'o', which I can see was also a mistake.

Kirby · **#394**

Bill Spight wrote:

Some comments on the early play.

...

Thanks, Bill.

I like this idea:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . 1 . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I had a couple of people play like this against me, but I didn't really understand it. I guess it makes sense in this context. Kind of cool.

I have a question about this one...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . 3 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . X . 7 . . 5 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This way is certainly easier for white, in that I feel no risk of dying or anything like that. But if this situation came up in a future game, at the moment, I would still have difficulty playing it, because before the sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . B . . . . d X b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black has weaknesses in the shape around 'a', 'b', 'c', and 'd'. After the sequence, those weaknesses are totally gone, and black gets significant solid territory. It's true that I can put pressure on the marked black stone, above. But I feel like I paid a price to get this.

On the other hand, the sequence does look safer, and much easier than trying to invade directly. But it's hard for me to realize this vs. the cost of solidifying the black corner.

Do you have any comments that might make me less fearful to play this way in the future? :-)

Kirby · **#395**

Uberdude wrote:

Nothing wrong with approaching the top right, indeed it's the most common pro move in that position and has a good win rate. It's the pincer after his pincer that's problematic. You go into an area you made smaller and harder by exchanging the approach for a pincer.

Sounds right. The pincer after his pincer certainly feels wrong. I didn't know there were pro games with approaching the top right. I think Bill's idea is also kind of cool.

Kirby · **#396**

Loons wrote:

I found this position interesting:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 24 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . b c . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . X . o . p . X a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

On similarish boards, professionals tried a-d in my database. My instinct was to start at 'p' instead of 'o', which I can see was also a mistake.

Yeah, I definitely feel 'o' is wrong. I kind of like the idea of 'a' out of these. Seems like a very nice place to start.

ez4u · **#397**

What would have happened if Black had cut at 1 below instead of playing at 'a'? By reducing the liberties on the marked White stones, Black prevents White from continuing after the 2-3 exchange. If Black connects with 11 at 'b' the White stones at the top are nearly dead, Black has a huge wall facing the center, and I think Black can win a semeai between the two groups at the bottom. Note that if Black remains strong at the top, Black's cut and squeeze at 'c' (to extend his liberties for the fight at the bottom) will leave White without two eyes on the side.

White really was trolling around and getting into trouble on the bottom right. But once again we can see the truth of the adage if we can't be good, be lucky! :salute:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Would White collapse? (10 @ 1) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . O b X 9 X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . 7 2 6 5 4 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X W W 1 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X W X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . X X X O X X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X O . X O c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O X O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O X X . X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O O O X O O . O | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . X . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · **#398**

Kirby wrote:

Loons wrote:

I found this position interesting:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 24 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . b c . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . X . o . p . X a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

On similarish boards, professionals tried a-d in my database. My instinct was to start at 'p' instead of 'o', which I can see was also a mistake.

Yeah, I definitely feel 'o' is wrong. I kind of like the idea of 'a' out of these. Seems like a very nice place to start.

'o' is wrong?

See :w34:

. Go Seigen.

Kirby · **#399**

ez4u wrote:

White really was trolling around and getting into trouble on the bottom right. But once again we can see the truth of the adage if we can't be good, be lucky! :salute:

Yes, I agree. I think I said a couple of posts ago:

Kirby wrote:

I should have lost. Lately, my "wins" are should-be losses... At the end, I was very, very lucky.

These days, the only way I can win is by luck. I don't know how to win by actual strategy, anymore.

Kirby · **#400**

Bill Spight wrote:

'o' is wrong?
...

See :w34:

. Go Seigen.

Maybe not, then. I guess 'o' is correct if Go Seigen played it (but maybe still wrong if I play it :-)

).

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