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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #101 Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:23 pm 
Gosei
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Hey topazg;

If you're the next to play top right, what'll you play? Do you feel that you're likely or unlikely to be next to play top right?

_________________
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.

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Post #102 Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:07 pm 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm44
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Variation: seems good for B?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . O . . .
$$ | . O O . . O X . .
$$ | . X . X . O X O .
$$ | . . . X . X O O .
$$ | . . . . . . X . .
$$ | . . X . . X . . O
$$ | . 1 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . X O 4 . . . . .
$$ | . 3 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #103 Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:11 am 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm44
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Loons wrote:
Hey topazg;

If you're the next to play top right, what'll you play? Do you feel that you're likely or unlikely to be next to play top right?


Yeah, I'm desperate to play up there, but so's he I expect, so we'll see who gets it first:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm44
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . 8 . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . O O O O a . . , . . . 4 . X . 5 . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I'm expecting something like this. I sort of want to kick first, but I don't think he'll respond to it, I think he'll switch directions, so I'll just try to claim points. Either way the cutting aji at "a" is increasing, and the usefulness of his thickness is decreasing.

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Post #104 Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:42 am 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm46
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Aphelion:
I was lucky and got both :wc: and :wt:. :-|
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Q . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #105 Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:22 am 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm46
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Another one I've wanted to try for some time :)

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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #106 Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:34 am 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Trigger:

if...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm46
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


then...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm46
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #107 Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:50 am 
Honinbo
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Perhaps topazg did not like this variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$---------------
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . 6 4 . . |
$$. O . X . . . |
$$. . . . 5 . . |
$$. . . 1 O . . |
$$. . . 2 3 . . |
$$. . . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #108 Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:25 am 
Tengen
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Observers:

Some quick points on my last move. Ed chose what I'd have chosen, because the common line seems, frankly, pretty good for White:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . 5 7 . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 2 O b . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


But with the "a" and "b" aji for White, I'm just a bit flat, and he's already got a doorway to 4th line development at the top. He does have an open skirt in the top middle, but I think it gives White good potential to use his thickness. So, why my move?

It's a pretty common fighting technique at pro level (although my understanding of what to do with it may be poor), but basically White can't easily push and cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . 8 0 . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . 1 6 X 7 . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 2 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


The marked Black stone is a key reason for me picking this line. This is generally a good line for Black anyway (I think White pushing is a mistake here because it damages the top so badly), but the fact I'm secure on the right makes it hard for White to handle his R14 stone so easily. It also gives me some leeway to hold the corner, which is important to me. Some alternatives for White:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . 8 . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O 4 X 5 2 . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 C 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


This was played in a fairly recent title match I think, and here White got his compensation on the right as the marked stone wasn't there - so, I don't think White can play like this here as he gets nothing much. The following is an alternative I've seen comments on by Hwang In-Seong, so I assume this is playable

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . 2 1 6 . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O . X 4 5 . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . 0 X . X 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 9 O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . a . . X C X . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O . X X O . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . 3 1 X X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O O O O 7 . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . 4 . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . 5 . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . 8 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


In the game in question, he recommended :b57: at Black's marked stone, but as I already have one there I assume I can play here instead. Interesting fight anyway. Also planning on variations that aim at "a".

Either way, I think this may prevent White from getting what he wants. If he decides to sacrifice:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Now I'm happy just accepting an open skirt to push the top, and have lots of points in the corner and edge. I think this would be an acceptance from White that his approach was the wrong one. Assuming he doesn't feel that way, let's have a fight :)

Other points I care about:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . d d . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . d . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O c . O X . d . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


"a" looks awesome now he's chosen not to protect the corner. "b" I consider sort of miai depending on what happens in the top right, "c" is just big gote, and the "d" area I'll want to use at some point to milk the remaining aji there.

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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #109 Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:18 pm 
Tengen
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Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
for obs:

atari is the only move black can make without losing point.
always atari at this shape.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . 8 C . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . 1 6 X 7 0 . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 2 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #110 Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:57 am 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm48
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Next, :b49: at (b) seems forced; many variations to follow, perhaps more than :w48: at (a) or (b).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$--------------
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . a . . . |
$$. O . X . . . |
$$. . b . X . . |
$$. . . 1 O . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . . |[/go]
(p)
:w48: is not a good choice.
During the game, I learned about this :w1: kosumi in a 2003 pro game, and my idea was to follow up with :w3::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$--------------
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. O . X . . . |
$$. . 1 . X . . |
$$. . . . O 2 . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. 3 . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . . |[/go]
I rejected it, partly because I did not know how to evaluate the situation.
Turned out, this was a good idea. Another line I gave up:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 3 1 2 . . |
$$ . . O . X . . . |
$$ . 5 4 . . X . . |
$$ . 7 6 . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Again, because I did not know how to evaluate it. It was also better than the game.
So I threw away two better ideas. :-?


Last edited by EdLee on Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.

This post by EdLee was liked by: topazg
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Post #111 Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:58 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm48
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #112 Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:59 am 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm50
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Many variations starting with :b47: ; have to take it one move at a time.

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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #113 Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:04 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm50
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


First instinct here. Rejected moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm50
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Aiming at something like:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm50
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , 9 7 5 O 0 X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . 8 6 4 X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Lots of odd looking variations can happen here, but I must keep White separated. He can't easily stop me from keeping him separated fortunately:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm50
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . 8 O . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #114 Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:07 am 
Tengen
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Further thoughts:

My plan at the lower left has changed, as the contact play I was looking at seems pretty awkward if he hanes on the outside. Currently looking at:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm50
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #115 Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:31 am 
Honinbo
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A bit unexpected. I was ready for :b2: hane instead, which can follow-up with an atari at (a) or (b):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$---------------
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . e . . |
$$. O . X . . . |
$$. . X c X d . |
$$. . . O O . . |
$$. . . b . . . |
$$. . a 1 X . . |
$$. . . 2 . . . |
$$. . . , . . . |
$$. . . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . . |[/go]
This may be significant in the (messy) fight ahead.
I had been reading the many variations starting from the W (c) push, W (d) hane, and W (e) at 3-3, all given :b2: hane.
Back to more reading... :study:

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Post #116 Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:42 am 
Judan
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@Observers:
:w48: is looking premature.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm48
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


White's play is not on the right side, it is on the top:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm48
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O W . . . , . . . W . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 O . . |
$$ | . O X X . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . 3 . . X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O W . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

(...or the bottom maybe, but that is a separate idea. )

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Post #117 Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:43 pm 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm52
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #118 Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:27 pm 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm52
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O 2 X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


And so it begins :)

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 Post subject:
Post #119 Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:31 pm 
Honinbo
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Location: Santa Barbara, CA
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If :b51: was a hane at :b2: instead of (a)...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$--------------
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . b . . |
$$. O . X . . . |
$$. . X . X . . |
$$. . . O O . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . 1 X . . |
$$. . . 2 a . . |
$$. . . , . . . |[/go]

...and W jumps into 3-3 at (b):

Variation 1:
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[go]$$W My conclusion: Unclear, but :bs: seems almost settled.
$$---------------
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . 2 1 6 . |
$$. O . # 4 5 . |
$$. . X . X 3 . |
$$. . . O O . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . O X . . |
$$. . . X . . . |
$$. . . , . . . |[/go]

Variation 2:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$---------------
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . 2 1 7 . |
$$. O . X 5 4 9 |
$$. . X 6 X 3 . |
$$. . . O O 8 . |
$$. . . . . 0 . |
$$. . . O X . . |
$$. . . X . . . |
$$. . . , . . . |[/go]

Variation 2 (cont'd):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Prisoners: :b1: \nMy conclusions: :bs: seems strong; :wc: seems weakish; \n :w1: :b2: broken shape for W; :bt: hane has nice (c) atari follow-up; \n unclear how to attack :bc:.
$$---------------
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . B O O . |
$$. O . X O . O |
$$. 2 X X X O . |
$$. . 1 W O X . |
$$. . . . . # . |
$$. . c O X . . |
$$. . . Y . . . |
$$. . . , . . . |[/go]

Overall conclusion for :w52: jumping into 3-3 at (b): Unclear, maybe not so good for W.

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 Post subject:
Post #120 Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:40 pm 
Honinbo
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If :b51: was a hane at :b2: instead of (a)...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$--------------
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. O . X . . . |
$$. . X . X b . |
$$. . . O O . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . 1 X . . |
$$. . . 2 a . . |
$$. . . , . . . |[/go]

...and W plays hane at (b):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$--------------
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. 7 . . 6 . . |
$$. O 4 X 5 2 . |
$$. . X 3 X 1 . |
$$. . . O O . . |
$$. . . . . . . |
$$. . c O X . . |
$$. . . # . . . |
$$. . . , . . . |[/go]
My conclusions: Unclear, maybe OK for W; a big ko ahead; :bs: still has the nice (c) atari follow-up.

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