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 Post subject: Re: Surrounding Game asking for more money?
Post #21 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:58 pm 
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cdpruitt wrote:
Part of the issue is that it's sometimes hard when you're working on an intensive creative project to ask for guidance and input from the general public and it's something we intend to improve upon.

Absolutely. Don't worry about the small stuff, of course - whether go is 2500 or 5000 years old is a difficult and unimportant question to answer. I think asking about the big stuff is important, but the salient point here is that, provided you say "these are my views - what do you think?", people will probably mostly agree with you. :)

xed_over wrote:
This is what's happening already. If the contributors say yes to the new decisions, then they will donate the money. If they say no, then they won't.

But, according to what the website says, if they say no to the "needed" money, the project won't be completed. That's my concern: people will feel duped. Bullied into giving more money than they had originally bargained on giving, because it seems as though nothing will be produced if this extra $30k isn't raised, and their $25k will be wasted. This doesn't just breed resentment - it also makes people less likely to donate more. If the website said the honest thing - "we think this project upgrade would be awesome [insert details here], but we can always just fall back to what we originally promised [insert details here]" - people would gladly reach back into their pockets for more, because they're donating purely for the love of the game, just like they always were.


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Post #22 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:59 pm 
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Thanks Cole and everyone else for replying. I'm relieved to see I wasn't the only one who felt concered about this. I think Kirby and Billywoods hit the nail on the head. You're doing a good job. What's needed to reassure your backers is just a bit more transparency.

For example, based on some early impressions I'd thought that Ing had given you much more money and wondered what it could possibly have all been spent on already. A detailed public accounting of how much money you received, what it's been used for so far and a budget of precisely what you think you need for the remainder of the project (with options and milestones) would do a lot to increase your credibility and the strength of your case for more funding.

A more serious approach and detailed plan could also improve your relationship with Ing. I'm sure they've already given you a lot more than 'only about $10k' because those in kind expenses while you were in Asia would have added up quickly. Did you consider that they might have hedged their bets and given you $10000 initially so that they could see what you did with it? They may have wanted to force you to manage your finances more carefully. If you're able to go back to them with all the finances in order and future costs really nailed down properly they may be able to provide more assistance.

To be honest, if someone came to me with a business proposal and the kind of one sentence explanation you have on your homepage at the moment it would set alarm bells off. The moment I really started to question you was when I clicked 'Why?' and got a one liner. That doesn't convey respect for other people's money. If I were Ing, I wouldn't give you another $10k under those circumstances. If you don't provide details people are going to fill in the blanks themselves and not everyone will do that the way you want them to.

For example, you don't want to give the impression of a project that's being poorly managed, with cost and scope blowouts. You also don't want to give people the impression that a bunch of college students are going on a junket on someone else's hard earned dime. Those characterizations may well be unfair, but you still need to do your best to convince people otherwise if you want more support.

So, apart from making your costs so far available can you also tighten up the future budget a bit and show people what exactly they'll be paying for with funding milestones? For example, you should know fairly well how much music you need for the movie. Can you get a quote from someone to compose original music now and hold them to it? That doesn't seem unreasonable. Will the first $10000 you raise now pay for editing and post-production or will it pay for a trip to Japan?

You also need to ask yourselves whether it's really necessary to go to Japan. Was it really necessary to go to both China and Korea for that matter? For example, was it possible to ask a TV network like Baduk TV to provide footage and the permission to use it and save a lot of money? Maybe yes, maybe no. Maybe some of that money could have been spent on post-production? It's ok if you made a mistake, nobody expects you to be perfect. The most important thing is to learn from the experience you've gained so far. Can you ask the Nihon Ki-in to get footage of the recent Honinbo from a local TV network in Japan? Can you interview the Japanese pros who regularly visit the US instead of flying all your people to Japan? Can you interview people over the internet and have film crews record a high quality picture at both ends?

If you're not going to put your own money on the line in this venture, as you've said above, you also need to be upfront with the people who are about what happens to any potential profits. Maybe the movie won't make any money, but if you raise enough money to start taking it to film festivals, maybe it will. In that case, will the profits go back to your 'investors', will they go towards other projects in the go community or will they end up in your bank account?

Please understand that I'm partly playing the Devil's Advocate here to get you to think about these things and to try to help you refine your own thinking. Some people may want answers to these questions. You want to convey that you've seriously thought about how to do this in a cost effective manner and that you're not taking other people's money for granted. In general, the more confidence you can give people in your professionalism and exactly what you're going to use their money for, the more money you should be able to raise. This is something that's worth spending at least a few days on.

You still have my support.


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 Post subject: Re: Surrounding Game asking for more money?
Post #23 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:06 pm 
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billywoods wrote:
But, according to what the website says, if they say no to the "needed" money, the project won't be completed.

Odd, I don't see that at all.
Everything I've read so far, says to me that it just won't be completed as professionally has it could have been otherwise.

billywoods wrote:
I hope it turns out to be worth it, and no contributors feel ripped off.

I donated a little money. And I'm in a trailer. That's more than I hoped for. In fact, as a game recorder, it had completely escaped my mind that that might happen -- until I saw the cameras.

Hope they don't show me nodding off while broadcasting games. I got so little sleep that week. I stayed in the same cabin with the filmmakers at the Go Congress -- they got more sleep than I did.

Its been worth it already. I don't feel ripped off (except when they drank my Dr. Peppers from the fridge -- but they replaced them) :)

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Post #24 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:31 pm 
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cdpruitt wrote:
Hi everyone,

This is Cole Pruitt from the Surrounding Game documentary. I just joined lifein19x19 (please forgive me if I make any board-specific etiquette faux-pas, like making gigantic posts).

cause it might take an editor many more months to create the story, and it's hard to gauge the creative process. I wish I could give a more accurate answer, but it's a big unknown.
...
Questions/advice/comments? I want to know what you would like to see or hear from us to address your very reasonable concerns and thoughts. And thanks again (!) for your support of the project!

Cole


...And transparency has been somewhat established. While some parts were a little vague, Cole's post here shows an example of what a small effort of communication can do to clear up people's questions. I feel that this type of communication, including numbers, estimates, and maybe even what was actually spent on various items after the fact (eg. when estimates differ from actuals), allows for people to have a good understanding of how their money is being used to produce the final product.

Without such communication, people are pretty much in the dark about what is happening. People ask, "Why is there another fundraiser? Was my donation not sufficient? Does it really cost that much money to put together a documentary?"

With numbers out in the open, these questions are answered, and people can understand how their money is being used.

The more clarity in this type of situation the better, and I'm glad that Cole has taken a step toward clearing this up for everyone involved.

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Post #25 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:54 pm 
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xed_over wrote:
billywoods wrote:
But, according to what the website says, if they say no to the "needed" money, the project won't be completed.

Odd, I don't see that at all.
Everything I've read so far, says to me that it just won't be completed as professionally has it could have been otherwise.


Aside from the website, the sentiment that billywoods may be referring to might be from Cole's post earlier in the forum:
Cole wrote:
we needed to decide which road to take: produce the low-tier film with what we had, or front-load our expenses and raise more money in the future to make the film truly professionally done and able to really reflect Go as we saw it.


Given this, basically, the guys had raised a sum of money - enough to make the low-tier film. But they decided not to do this, and that's why they are raising more money - to "make the film truly professionally done and able to reflect Go" as they saw it.

This may be fine and dandy, but I think that billywood's point was that the people that gave them their initial sum of money did so under the impression that a film would be produced for that amount of money. But it's not really what's happening - the goal has changed, and the amount of money required has also changed.

There are many supporters of the film, and some may support this decision and some may not. There's no problem for those still supporting the decision. If some people no longer support the decision, I could see how they might be upset.

In any case, the point remains that detail and clarity in communication on how money will be spent (and how it's already been spent), and maybe even in decisions that are made as the case may be, will alleviate these types of troubles.

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Post #26 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:01 pm 
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cdpruitt wrote:
... It is hard to budget some of these things in the process because it might take an editor many more months to create the story, and it's hard to gauge the creative process. I wish I could give a more accurate answer, but it's a big unknown.
...


I'm sure that a report of what was actually spent after the fact, once you know how much everything ended up costing, would be welcomed by your financial supporters.

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Post #27 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:04 pm 
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Owari, are you someone who is in the habit of entertaining business proposals? And if so, are you also under the impression that if you ask a subcontractor to submit a bid on a project that has no funding, he's going to bust his ass putting together an accurate proposal?

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge advocate of transparency. Knowledge is power, free Bradley, all that jazz. But it's one thing to ask for accurate accounting of money already spent (this is what Kirby wants, I think), another to ask for full disclosure of aspirations about where new money will go, and something completely different to ask for accurate accounting on parts of the project that haven't been started yet. They could spend the next two months hassling musicians and producers for cost estimates, and what they would have at the end would be no better than what they had now.

By the way, for the team; how much would it cost to license music, instead?

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Post #28 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:11 pm 
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jts wrote:
... But it's one thing to ask for accurate accounting of money already spent (this is what Kirby wants, I think), ...


What I would expect is:
  • Estimates on futures costs.
  • Discussions about changes of plans.
  • Communication of what things actually costed after the fact.

But I don't feel like this is a binary switch ("Yes, they did this" vs. "No, they didn't do this"), but rather a continuum. That is, the MORE they do this, the MORE they establish the trust of their supporters, and the MORE they make their supporters glad that they did what they did - and even in the know about what they did. Conversely, if this doesn't happen much, you'll be bound to have a number of supporters who regret their decision.

To me this is not just about the Surrounding Game documentary. It's about future efforts in go as well. If we have widespread disappointment with this project, it will be all the more difficult in the future to gain support for go related aspirations.

And that would be a pity.

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Post #29 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:23 pm 
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Thanks for the update Cole, I was somewhat perturbed when I got the email asking for more money.

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Post #30 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:43 pm 
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jts wrote:
Owari, are you someone who is in the habit of entertaining business proposals? And if so, are you also under the impression that if you ask a subcontractor to submit a bid on a project that has no funding, he's going to bust his ass putting together an accurate proposal?

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge advocate of transparency. Knowledge is power, free Bradley, all that jazz. But it's one thing to ask for accurate accounting of money already spent (this is what Kirby wants, I think), another to ask for full disclosure of aspirations about where new money will go, and something completely different to ask for accurate accounting on parts of the project that haven't been started yet. They could spend the next two months hassling musicians and producers for cost estimates, and what they would have at the end would be no better than what they had now.

By the way, for the team; how much would it cost to license music, instead?


I've never hired someone to compose music before. I have dealt with many other kinds of contractors though. Composing a short score to match a story that has the general elements x, y and z seems to be a well defined task. In contrast, editing and post-production isn't well defined at this time and I didn't suggest that it could be. This is where project costs are most likely to get out of control, so if it were my project, I'd get an estimate of the minimum cost, triple it and manage this contractor more carefully.

My point isn't that all estimates need to be exact, but that controlling the elements that you can control and coming up with contingency plans about what and how you can cut (if you have to) shows good discipline. It also lends credibility to your other estimates, that are by necessity more rubbery.

Looking into the licensing costs as an alternative (even if only to dismiss it as too expensive) would strengthen the business case and sounds like a good idea.


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Post #31 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:12 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
Aside from the website, the sentiment that billywoods may be referring to might be from Cole's post earlier in the forum:

Yeah, more or less. I quote from the original kickstarter page - all emphasis is mine:
Quote:
if we can raise $25,000, we can bring you the fullest perspective, one that does justice to the stories of rising teen stars, world champions, and those who play simply because they love the game. No matter what, we're committed to making an exceptional film, but if we can reach this additional funding challenge we can truly knock this out of the park.


And Cole's recent post:
Quote:
we needed to decide which road to take: produce the low-tier film with what we had, or front-load our expenses and raise more money in the future to make the film truly professionally done and able to really reflect Go as we saw it.


That is, we first get told to expect everything, and then we get told it's only "low-tier"; we get told we'll get "the fullest perspective" that "does justice to" go, but then suddenly we can only "really reflect go" in a film that costs twice as much. A very stark contrast.

But what I was actually referring to was something that had already happened before Cole posted, namely the even starker contrast between this and what appears when you hover over the button marked 'why?' next to "DONATE" and "Goal: $30,000" on the current website:

Quote:
Making a professional-quality documentary is expensive! Our Kickstarter campaign raised enough for the filming and early production, but to see this project through completion, we need to raise enough to hire a full-time editor and to pay for post-production expenses. Thank you so much for your support.


- paying particular attention to the word "need". We don't even get a low-tier film: if we don't raise this money, the project doesn't get completed. Has "the project" changed? According to Cole's recent posts, yes, but that's not obvious at all from the website - we were already promised an "exceptional film" which they would "knock ... out of the park" that "does justice to" go, so it doesn't seem as though they've set their sights higher at all. It looks like it now just costs double.

Anyway, we've now resolved this issue (at least here on L19!) thanks to Cole's clarification of what really happened, so I don't see any need to keep clarifying my complaint about a false alarm. :)

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Post #32 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:32 pm 
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Having access to interview pros already makes it an exceptional film content-wise even if the editing may be somewhat amateurish without further donations. But having further donations which will get the quality to a level ready for theatre distribution is spectacular because it will not only get attention from current go players but hopefully be able to attract a new wave of Western interest into the game.

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Post #33 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:09 pm 
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I'm a bit of a cynic, and I have some doubts that a documentary, no matter how good, is going to have a major impact on Go in the West. Even a major motion picture such as "Searching for Bobby Fischer" did not have a huge impact on chess in this country.

That having been said, I don't hear anyone actually questioning that these guys are legitimate or that their intentions are good. It sounds to me from what I have read that they have put a lot of effort into this project, and I would guess that most if not all financial contributions to their project pale in comparison to the time and effort the Team members themselves have contributed. From the limited information I have seen, it also sounds like they have got some good video footage to work with.

Given the apparent absence of anything currently in existence that is comparable to what they are trying to do, at a minimum they will hopefully end up producing something interesting that can be used to promote Go. And who knows, sometimes relatively inexperienced people can produce outstanding work, especially when they are young and ambitious.

I am not surprised that they are significantly over-budget, this happens even to seasoned professionals in the film industry with some regularity. A certain level of optimism is actually helpful in this kind of creative endeavor, because it keeps you going forward even when it ends up being more difficult than you anticipated.

I for one think it would be a shame if they don't have sufficient resources to properly finish this project. So notwithstanding my doubts about its ultimate impact, I have just made a Paypal contribution and wish them good luck.


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Post #34 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:38 pm 
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owari wrote:
This is where project costs are most likely to get out of control, so if it were my project, I'd get an estimate of the minimum cost, triple it and manage this contractor more carefully.
Okay, so if you only want to your guess to be right within an order of magnitude or so, maybe I misunderstood your point. They have already asked someone in the industry what they should budget, and that is going to put them well within the order-of-magnitude ballpark. (Now, maybe they're lying about having asked for advice. Or maybe their contact is lying. But at a certain point if you aren't willing to assume good faith and diligence on the part of the team, if you are still interested in the Surrounding Game project at all.)
Quote:
My point isn't that all estimates need to be exact, but that controlling the elements that you can control and coming up with contingency plans about what and how you can cut (if you have to) shows good discipline. It also lends credibility to your other estimates, that are by necessity more rubbery.
... and this is where I think we differ. There's a garbage-in, garbage-out quality to estimates like this. If you discover that your initial estimates were based on flawed premises, persisting a plan you drew up at the beginning is compounding ignorance with obstinacy. You can't triage until you've seen the casualties, in other words.
Quote:
Looking into the licensing costs as an alternative (even if only to dismiss it as too expensive) would strengthen the business case and sounds like a good idea.
Or, even if they can't get the licenses, instructing a musician to mimic the piece they would like to license might be quicker and cheaper than commissioning something original.

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Post #35 Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:57 am 
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Post #36 Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:04 am 
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I am glad to see that at least one sceptic considered donating for
this second wave.
Speaking for myself I have to regulate the next donation with my
dear wife who is not too fond of Go. For some of us donating means
really sharing. I am happy to share, but it may take some weeks
until I find an appropriate moment to do so :-)

For now I would like to repeat what I said before: I wish this
project all the best and I feel that my $80 were donated to the
right project. These little postcards from China were really nice
and my Go-T-Shirt gets a lot of attention.

Thanks to the team and good luck!

Cheers,
Rainer
(GoChild GoRo with 1658856 points)

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Post #37 Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:37 am 
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I've given in both rounds. I think they're doing a terrific job and they were very brave to start it at all. We had no particular reason to expect someone to come out of the woodwork and do a feature length documentary on the game aimed at a Western audience, but they did. Given that, we still had no reason to expect that for the small amount of money available and the youth of the participants, that they would be doing it with quite such an eye for visual beauty.

With regard to the merits of them coming back to the well, I think all those of us who gave in round one have a right to expect is that the makers would release a movie consistent with a budget of $25,000 that delivered on their trailer. I'm pretty sure if they don't get more money now, they'd be able to ... and would ... finish such a movie. But we don't get editorial approval on what they do. They are the authors of this and when you donate via kickstarter to a creative work, you are donating money to make sure an author can create the work, including the risk you won't like their authorship. We have no obligation to donate more money and at the same time really no standing to complain if they can raise more; in fact, it benefits the round one donors if more donors are brought in. If I give $100 in round one and they make do, I've given $100 to help get a $25,000 movie made. If instead they raise more, I've given $100 to help get a $60,000 movie made.

At various times through my life, I've been involved with charities, the arts, non-profits and politics. These activities have the common characteristic that participants rarely get to wear their hats; they're too busy holding them out to everyone they meet. It is the raw fact of life. Documentary film making falls squarely in that world, and if you ask me what these guys are doing asking for more money, my answer would be "their job."


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Post #38 Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:04 pm 
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It is an inevitable fact of film production that everyone who pitches in somehow, whether it be with money or labor (but especially money) feels entitled to creative or operational input. Everyone thinks they are a producer, despite knowing absolutely nothing about production. This thread is a good example of that phenomenon.

Anyone who asks why the film business can't work in an open, logical, common sense way has never spent a single day embroiled in it. I'm not endorsing the way it works, merely pointing out the current reality.

Crowd sourcing is an interesting method for producing a modest film where there is little to no backend return on the line. The moment real interest picks up is the moment the real insanity takes over. This little Go documentary is unlikely to attract that sort of attention, and thankfully so I think. Just the same, actually making the darn thing in such a way that it doesn't look like a weekend project by a bunch of amateurs takes a lot more time and money than anyone would expect. And mostly because most folks don't know the million ways things can and do go wrong, and/or the million sources of unexpected costs (many of them being what are called "opportunity costs", which by the way, this documentary is trying pursue).

To everyone who contributed I suggest they sit back, relax, take pride in helping to make the documentary possible, but leave its production to the guys making it. It got funded which means, legally, you will get what was promised to you for your contribution. Beyond that, I don't believe there is any other role for you to play, including that of producer, auditor, or creative consultant.


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Post #39 Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:05 pm 
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As a donor (albeit a low-tier one) I've been completely satisfied by the process. At $15,000 in a Kickstarter I expected a brief, amateur production. As time went on and I followed the AGA and Kickstarter coverage of what people were doing it looked like it had the potential to grow into something larger. I'm glad the opportunity hasn't been wasted.

The second fund-raising drive exists to upgrade the bare-bones initial production into something better. Considering the expansion the content has experienced, it seems appropriate to attempt to raise the production values. If they get all the upgrades they want, that'll be awesome. If they only get part of that money (or none of it) I still get what I had originally expected.

This is a "shoot for the moon, and you'll at least land among the stars," scenario, not a "we blew our year's budget in Fiscal Q1 on junkets and now you have to raise tax revenues or else we'll fire the police, firefighters, and close the schools," scenario I see played out time and time again by various governments. ;)

This is not a "give us more money or you'll never see the project you invested in," scenario. This is the right way to try to level-up a project.

- Marty Lund


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Post #40 Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:08 pm 
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zslane wrote:
Anyone who asks why the film business can't work in an open, logical, common sense way has never spent a single day embroiled in it. I'm not endorsing the way it works, merely pointing out the current reality.


I have to say, having been lightly embroiled in film a few times, that when I read folks expecting a high standard of transparency in film finance ... well ... it's very sweet of them, really.

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