Hi Dave, thanks for your research -- I'll read it in depth later.
I completely agree Japanese byo-yomi is super unnatural for me; that's the main reason I prefer Canadian to it.

It is a time management algorithm, but it does not require me to think about the time usage and it does not require me to even look at the clock. I rely on the audio countdown for that. The only real bit of time management occurred during the 30 seconds it took to come up with the algorithm. Even when I am applying the algorithm in my games, I am doing so mindlessly and my concentration is completely on the game. There is pretty much zero brainpower expended on time management when I play in this way. I just think for the entire period minus two seconds. That and I think when my opponent is thinking. The important part here is that I think only about the moves and never about the time.

When I play using Canadian byo-yomi, I sometimes forget to look at the clock in byo-yomi and all of a sudden, it looks like I have 10 seconds to play 5 moves. To call what I am doing with Japanese byo-yomi "time management" seems very tongue-in-cheek...which it obviously is. You can call my initial 30 second investment into deciding this policy time management, but since that is a fixed cost, my investment per game will approach zero as I play more and more games.

EDIT: For those of you who don't struggle with Canadian byo-yomi, more power to you. You must have more brainpower to spare than I do.

My initial reaction to Walleye's original post was ridicule... and suspicion. I could not come up with any reason in my own mind for hiding your clock other than some attempt to game your opponent.

But the longer the thread has gone on (and the more I have thought about it) the more reasonable this idea seems. Not hiding my clock from my opponent, but rather hiding my view of my opponent's clock. Why do I need to see my opponent's clock other than to attempt to alter my play based on the information? Should I really want to alter my play based on my opponent's time, if so, why? Why shouldn't I be more interested in playing my game with minimal distractions? This morning I suddenly recalled watching Minue622 back around 2005/2006. Minue was one of my favorite players to observe but it was excruciating. M was constantly playing right around the last second or so of the time control. Of course that was half the fun for us fans! However, why would I benefit from that kind of "fun" as a player? I think I will have to try the 'sticky' solution and see how it goes.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

In terms of practicality, whether such an option "should" be implemented by go servers will come down to how many people would want to use such an option. Unless the advocates of such an option plans to program their own server and gather a critical mass for their server, it's a matter of showing existing go servers why such an option would help them build up their user base. And you need numbers to back up your suggestions before any go server would take serious consideration for such a option to be added. There are always so many other areas of requested improvements competing for their attention.

I would not use such an option even if it were there because I think go is a game of perfect information and knowing how much time my opponent has left is and has always been a consideration in how to play the psychological part of the game against an opponent. For example, knowing that your opponent is in time trouble would probably lead to a more aggressive strategy of building complications rather than simplification.

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

Pros certainly alter their play based on their opponent's time. They're trying to win and they know how to increase their chances non-trivially in those situations.I am going to assume that this isn't a discussion of morality but of motivation. What you should do is just do what you want. No one should think less of you for it.The clock is rarely a distraction to begin with. The clock is only there if you want to look at it. I have trouble seeing my own clock, let alone my opponent's. I don't see how one can actually be distracted by this...and I am someone who often cannot sleep because I can hear the sound of blood pumping through the veins near my ear. Besides, the proponents of this idea are talking about hiding your clock from your opponent's not hiding your opponent's clock from you.Does the fact that a player is playing right around the last second make the game more or less fun? I guess I don't really understand that. Then again, I won't be surprised if I am in the minority on that issue. I find watching live games somewhat of a bore. I would rather watch/read a prepared review.I don't really know either. I find that I myself cannot use time-based attacks because I am too focused on the board. However, I don't really mind if someone uses such tactics against me, as long as they're not trolling. After all, 1) it's a fun challenge, and 2) I can respect the fact that the opponent is good enough to create a complication that may resolve itself in his favor.

Prima facie, I have no objections to the proposed option, even if I would never use it myself. After all, it would just be an option. However, I do feel that it's a very low priority, especially given the presence of turn-based servers. Furthermore, how often does one face a real time-based attack in non-tournament amateur settings? It just seems that the absence of a clock-hiding option would nearly be a non-issue even for those who don't want to face time-based attacks.

I suppose that what I have offered in this thread is really just a criticism based on pragmatism, since the issue is unrelated to morality. It is unlikely to be implemented and there are readily available substitute options. If the OP can get someone to implement the feature, then great for him. However, there really isn't much to discuss. You either want the feature or do not. Looking back at the OP's first post, it seems to me that he was just looking for something like a poll. Perhaps he would have gotten the kind of answers he wanted if simply made a yes/no poll.

I sometimes check my opponent's time and compare with mine to see if I am not budgeting my main time properly. Usually happens in tournaments with significant main time, like 1-2 hours. If I have 30 mins more than my opponent then it is easier to spend 10 mins on a critical move. In the opposite situation I realize I should focus better and use my time more efficiently.

I have done the same thing. However, now I ask myself, "Why?" That is, why should I use someone else as a standard for comparison? This might make sense if I am playing someone that I know well. Based on past experience, the fact that I am now behind 30 minutes on the clock may tell me something significant because I know that we use similar amounts of time in late-middle-game fighting. However, the likelihood that the same 30-minute gap will provide helpful information when playing a random opponent on a server is, well..., random (!), isn't it? It would seem much better to base my use of time on the way I have played in the past rather than some imagined future pattern of play by my opponent. In that sense the information on how much time my opponent has used or has left seems more like a nagging temptation to misinterpretation and misuse than a potential goldmine of tactical advantage.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

It is not at the top of the list of options I'd like to see implemented, but let me draw your attention to the fact that this option can have a not insignificant effect on how people actually play the game, unlike some eye candy options like board colour.



The substitutes suggested would not really work for me. I don't think there is a real substitute.


Well, people can change their mind.

Yes, I know that you are saying that the implementation would require that players agree to the option before the game. However, the reason you claim to desire this option is so that your opponent is less likely to beat you with time-based tactics. If it's about hiding something shown on my own screen, then I can always use a sticky.
That is perhaps true, although my opponent's time does not inform my own play and you claim that it does not inform yours. Part of why I see this exercise as being strange is because this option is really about controlling how others play, which I am not really interested in doing. This is doubly so if the game is casual. In fact, caring enough to try and shape your opponent's play style seems to be anything but casual.
Fair points.

If it is really just for purpose of building a casual clubby atmosphere, why would you want to hide something from each other in the first place? Hiding something from someone usually implies a distrust in the other person.

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

A mode where both players time is hidden could be fun. Am I in byo-yomi? Is my opponent? Nobody knows!

But we should at least be clear about what is being requested.

a) A change to provide a mode where it would not be trivial to know the opponent's time status or the opponent know yours. Please note the way I have worded that. If you would not be satisfied unless the change made it impossible for your opponent to know your time status you can't have that change because impossible. <<the opponent knows the time at he moved (start of you using your time) and when you next move (end of your move interval) so whether the server program or the client program used provides that information to him he could have something else that did <<like a go clock and he hits the buttons -- how could any programming changes prevent him form having a go clock sitting next to him>>.

b) Serves don't function alone. The other end is a client. You wouldn't need to change the server program; a change to the client program could hide the information even though the server sending it. I understand, you wouldn't trust that since your opponent could be using a version of the client that didn't or just have turned "hide mode" off. Well yes, but he could also have a go clock sitting beside him.

The point I am making is that you can't really have this option. What you can have is that you don't have access to the opponents time status <<but not that he can't have access to yours>> However just that doesn't require any programming changes, simply avert your eyes.

It really is the other way around. My train of thought was if this option is employed, what effect on the game it will have. Well, if the players can't see each other's clocks, then they are less likely to use time-based tactics against each other. Will the game be more like a club game? People can't use time-based tactics in a casual club game because they play without a clock. So, if you prevent time-based tactics on a server, then the conclusion is that it will be more like a casual club game in that sense. Is this a good thing? It depends. Will this option build a casual clubby atmosphere on a server? I doubt it.

As for reasons, I prefer to have a choice. The reason we don't have the choice now is historical as far as I can see. It makes sense to show both clocks on a game server if you treat the games like tournament games. But a lot of people play for fun. In this case, whether they can see each other's clocks or not should really be up to the players in my opinion.


You control how others play every time you select a particular time setting for the game. Even if the game is casual, you have to make some choice about how long the game will last, which also sets an average pace. Surely, this will effect how your opponent plays.

I can't stop someone from using a 5 dan bot either. But in my experience most people don't cheat, so I'm not worried about that at all. If you can tally my time in your head, then more power to you. But if you are using some device to do that even though you agreed not to, then you are cheating. I can't stop people from cheating. But, in this particular case, I do very seriously doubt anyone will bother to cheat that way.

You are missing my point?

The proposal was not for "could we have an agreement by which we do not look at each others time?" It was "could we have an option whereby I could hide my time from my opponent?". Those are not the same thing.

The first would not require a change to the server program. Agreement to use a modified version of the client would do, or even a bit of sticky on the screen blocking where opponents time is displayed. Or even just choosing not to look at the opponents time.

Actually, if the server waited some random amount of time before sending the move to the other opponent then you could have a way for it to be impossible to know your opponent's time remaining.

The server could keep accurate clocks for both players, but neither player would know how much time their opponent used vs how much "dead time" the server has added.

That would work (to hide the amount of time the opponent used). However it would unavoidably add time to you since the server could not start your time until the move was made. Of course just time where you don't (yet) know what exactly move the opponent is going to make, but still, that is useful thinking time, especially when the real choice is going to be between just a few moves. Similarly the opponent get an equivalent addition to time (it is fair in that regard; both get the same additional time to think)

If you don't understand what I am saying, picture that the random times being added were usually quite large compared to the actual time. How would this affect the game?

Oh, I understand that it will make the game longer (since the dead time must be accounted for somewhere)...The overall effect of this time though should be quite balanced, and both players will see an identical amount of overall dead-time, and both will see it in the same way (as if the opponent is taking longer to move). The main point I am saying is that it is quite possible to implement a scheme where neither player knows how much time their opponent has left.

If you go by my first post, I suggest that you read the rest of this thread. I clarified what I want several times. What I'm proposing is very specific and technically quite easy to implement. One choice is that the client app shows the players both clocks (the default) and the other choice is that it shows them their own clocks only. That's all. What you do with this is another issue.

What Mef suggests is not necessary, but I do like his idea as long as the added random time is quite small, say, within five seconds.

This comment misses the point. People do not choose time settings to affect how others play. It does affect how others play, but that is a side-effect of trying to be fair in implementing the primary objective: Controlling how long the game will last and controlling how long you have to wait. These desires have little to do with any desire to control the strategic choices of your opponents even if that is an unintended side-effect.

As you've explained it, the hiding of clocks is motivated by the desire to prevent time-informed strategic play on the part of your opponent. It is not a side-effect of some other goal of the feature that has nothing to do with controlling what moves your opponent plays.
Could Mike might be suggesting that two players could come to a "gentlemen's agreement" to not look at each other's time, which could be accomplished by two stickies? As long as both players follow this gentlemen's agreement, you could actually get what you want. A computer program implementation would give you the same thing, except there would be a different implicit gentleman's agreement not to use time calculation or a spare clock.