Kirby's Study Journal

Kirby · **#341**

Bill Spight wrote:

Don't believe everything you hear.

I understand that, which is why we are having this discussion, right?

Quote:

Takagawa says that there are two kinds of walls, those that require an extension, and those that do not. The difference is eye potential.

Okay. Personally, I don't feel black is lacking in potential to make eyes here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , B B B . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The marked stones seem strong to me.

I don't know what Takagawa would think, but I have my own reason for playing an extension in this case:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Is not because I am afraid that the black group in the bottom left is in any danger whatsoever of making eyes. It's because I think that the extension produces a nice framework on the left, and the influence on the bottom works well with the 4th line extension.

In other words, the influence is working together between the stones, and I feel it is efficient. If white already had an established presence on the left side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , B B B . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The marked black stones do not seem efficient to me. It's not that I'm afraid of the wall's eyespace. I'm just afraid that, in the bottom left, white got points, and black's influence is not doing much.

BillSpight wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Leaning first $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 1 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this case the question is not whether the extension is necessary or not. It was already desirable.

Like I said, I prefer ez4u's variation to the extension I proposed, so the discussion is more theoretical at this point, but I don't understand how the argument about move order changes things.

For example, can't you make the same argument in the original game? Is it unreasonable for black to play an extension first?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 6 7 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 5 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · **#342**

Kirby wrote:

BillSpight wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Leaning first $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 1 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this case the question is not whether the extension is necessary or not. It was already desirable.

Like I said, I prefer ez4u's variation to the extension I proposed, so the discussion is more theoretical at this point, but I don't understand how the argument about move order changes things.

The difference in move order reflects the difference in the purposes and priorities of the moves. In this case it is not that the extension serves the bottom right stones, it is that the bottom right stones serve the extension.

In the other case, the strong group in the top left corner is a given, and the extension is an afterthought.

Quote:

For example, can't you make the same argument in the original game? Is it unreasonable for black to play an extension first?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 6 7 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 5 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Well,

is unorthodox, isn't it? If then the play in the upper right corner then produced the same result as in the next diagram, it would be questionable, as the :bc:

stone would be poorly placed.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · **#343**

BillSpight wrote:

The difference in move order reflects the difference in the purposes and priorities of the moves. In this case it is not that the extension serves the bottom right stones, it is that the bottom right stones serve the extension.

Sure, you can think of it from that perspective. I'm just saying that the same could be said in the bad position, like the changed order I suggested - maybe black wants to extend on the side first. Then you could say that the thickness from the stones in the top left "serve the extension".

BillSpight wrote:

Well,

is unorthodox, isn't it? If then the play in the upper right corner then produced the same result as in the next diagram, it would be questionable, as the :bc:

stone would be poorly placed.

If we thought the result was bad here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Leaning first $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 1 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We could say that the same thing about this position - the extension is poorly placed. But we don't think the result is bad here, and we don't think that it is poorly placed. The reason doesn't seem to be behind the order of moves from the discussion so far.

The reason seems to be that the extension in the bad diagram is too close to the thickness, perhaps because it is inefficient since the group already has eyespace, like we discussed earlier. So to me, it seems that the characteristic that distinguishes these two shapes is thickness and/or eyeshape of the group.

Based on this logic, perhaps playing around 'a' as black in the diagram below would also be inefficient.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

ez4u · **#344**

This discussion seems to be getting out of hand. Quick, play another game!

Bill Spight · **#345**

Well, of course, we can say a lot of things.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 6 7 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 5 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What can we say about :b2:

here? It may not be best, but it is not a bad move. It forms a framework on the left side. But what about :b4:

? How does it make use of :b2:

? It doesn't, does it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Working together $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Instead, a move like :b4:

works with :b2:

, enlarging the framework and, depending upon how White responds, probably strengthening it. In this case, making the extension first does not lead to the position to be assessed, because Black has better plays.

My talk about a play being unnecessary may be confusing. After all, in the opening few moves are necessary. But again, there are degrees of necessity. The worst case is a move that not only accomplishes nothing, but takes a loss. It is worse than a pass. At the other end of the necessity scale are urgent plays, which take precedence over other large plays, as a rule. I think that you are trying to get me to put more weight on the idea of necessity than I do. To the degree that a play is unnecessary, it does less work. Perhaps it is better for you right now just to think about how the stones work together -- or not!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Degrees of work $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . e . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is plainly unnecessary, and it does hardly any work. "a" is also unnecessary, but it does more work. "b" does more work, but is still unnecessary. "c" is less unnecessary, and does even more work. By the time we get to a stone on "e", it does even more work. But it still does less work than other three space extensions, because it is unnecessary. By the time we get to "f", we are starting to get far enough from the top left group, but now we are getting close to the :bc:

stone, and maybe "f" is not working too well with it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Leaning first $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . d . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 1 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this case, :b5:

is pretty unnecessary, but a stone on "a", even though it is too close, does secure potential eyes for the Black group. A stone on "d", even at that distance, still helps to cover the weaknesses of the Black group, and so has a degree of necessity. By contrast with the other extension, it does more work than the simple four space high extension from the :bc:

stone, because it also works with :b1:

and

to make a large framework.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc B1 unnecessary $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this position Black to play would not play :b1:

, even though it secures the :bc:

stone. It is not necessary to do so, when Black can also press at "a", which works with the extension by enlarging the Black framework and also strengthens :bc:

.

Bill Spight · **#346**

Kirby wrote:

Based on this logic, perhaps playing around 'a' as black in the diagram below would also be inefficient.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of course it would be inefficient.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is more like it, eh?

Uberdude · **#347**

One reason Kirby's extension at d10 is liable to overconcentration (which Charles briefly touched on but I though would be good to show diagrams) is both players might like to later push at this shared power point, and in both sequences black's d10 ends up inefficient:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Black pushes $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X 1 2 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White pushes $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . 8 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · **#348**

BillSpight wrote:

I think that you are trying to get me to put more weight on the idea of necessity than I do.

At this point in the discussion, I'm not really trying to get you to put weight into anything, as much as I'm trying to distinguish the two cases we've been talking about: the position in the game, and leaning after low 3-4 approach. I know that the latter is good in some cases, and the former clearly seems bad, given ez4u's example.

What I didn't understand was what was different between the two cases.

I think that your explanation here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Leaning first $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . d . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 1 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

illustrates exactly what I didn't understand. Thinking of a close extension like this, 'a' still seems reasonable locally, and it seems more reasonable than playing such a close move in the top left in the game we are discussing. Extending this idea to extensions that are further away leads me to understand that there is more efficiency in extending from the 3-4 leaning example, than in the game position.

Thanks for that illustration.

Kirby · **#349**

ez4u wrote:

This discussion seems to be getting out of hand. Quick, play another game!

Yes, I kind of agree. I always know I've gone too far when I'm afraid to check the forum for new replies. :-)

I actually did play another game today for the AYD. I lost. I'll be getting a review from In-seong, though, so I probably won't post a self- review here. Maybe on Friday - or sooner, if I can get another non-AYD game in before then.

mitsun · **#350**

You could post the game here anyway, then compare our comments to the professional review, and see how far off we were

daal · **#351**

This is an excellent study journal. It succeeds because Kirby puts enough energy into both a) examining his own games and b) presenting his thoughts. This encourages stronger players to comment, and this whole combination turns it into a great learning resource for others. Kudos!

Kirby · **#352**

Thanks for the kind words, daal. As ez4u once said, flattery will get you everywhere!

I decided to play a game today, despite my schedule.

Here's my review.

Kirby · **#353**

Problems.

Position 1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O , O . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O B O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I played the marked move, but as in the game, he can push up. I think it makes more sense to play 3-3 here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O , O . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . B . . X . O . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Position 2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 65 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O , O B . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . O . . . X O . | $$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . . O O X . O . . X . . X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I totally misread the sequence starting with the marked move. I should have realized I could not cut, and should have protected the group much sooner.

I think that leaving this group weak, along with the result in the bottom left, really put me at risk of losing this game.

I got lucky that he played in a way to let me kill him at the end, but before that, I think it's white's game.

Kirby · **#354**

mitsun wrote:

You could post the game here anyway, then compare our comments to the professional review, and see how far off we were

Hehe, sure. I'll post a review a bit later - I've gotta get working for now. But that game can be summarized in that I misread and lost a group, tried to make a big moyo, he invaded, I misread and he got a good result. Then a bunch of weird ko stuff, and he ended up with more points.

ez4u · **#355**

Kirby wrote:

mitsun wrote:

You could post the game here anyway, then compare our comments to the professional review, and see how far off we were

Hehe, sure. I'll post a review a bit later - I've gotta get working for now. But that game can be summarized in that I misread and lost a group, tried to make a big moyo, he invaded, I misread and he got a good result. Then a bunch of weird ko stuff, and he ended up with more points.

So you were channelling me, were you? :blackeye:

Kirby · **#356**

So now that I am home, I had some time to look at a few more positions.

Position 3
Another mistake, I made, I think is this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O , O . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I looked it up, and maybe it is good for me to play this way if white tenukis, like he did in game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O , O . B . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If that works as an option, it seems a bit better, since it breaks white up more on the top. The way I played in the game just gave him a bunch of territory.

Position 4

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 35 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O , O . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O O X . O . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What am I really gaining with this move? Not much. If anything, it seems it should be on the other side, but that'll probably end in gote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ gote $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O , O . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 1 3 X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 2 X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O O X . O . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So it probably means I should play somewhere else. But where? My group on the top is weak,so it seems like I should help it out. But what is a good way? Maybe something like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Alternative? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O , O . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O O X . O . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I can see why I tenuki, as I thought I had a safety net, which I misread (cutting through to "get eye"). But anyway, I should help this group, I think.

I could just give up and play a big point elsewhere, but leaving the group weak could be trouble for later...

Position 5

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 46 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O , O . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . O O X . O . . X . . X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here, I had a chance to pressure the group, but maybe I did it the wrong way. Maybe I can just play in a simple way, and make a shape at the bottom, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 46 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O , O . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . 5 2 6 . . | $$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . 1 O O . | $$ | . . . O X O . . 7 , . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . O O X . O . . X . . X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

He might resist:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 46 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O , O . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . 5 2 4 . . | $$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . 1 O O . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . O O X . O . . X . . X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But in the worst case, it seems to be the same variation as this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 46 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O , O . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . 3 2 6 . . | $$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . 1 O O . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . O O X . O . . X . . X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

All seem OK for me, I think. So I think I like this approach better to what I played in the game.

Position 6

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 164 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . O O O O . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O X O X O O O . O X . X . . . | $$ | . X X X O X . . X O X X O X . X . . . | $$ | . O . X X X X X X X . . X O . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . O . O O X . O X O . O X . . | $$ | . O O X X O . O X X X . X O . X X . . | $$ | . O . O X X X O O O . X X O O O . . . | $$ | . O . O X O O O . , O O O O X X X X . | $$ | . . O . O X X O O O X O X X O . X O . | $$ | . . . O b X O X X X X O X O . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . a O . . . O X X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . X O . . . X O . | $$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . . O O X . O . . X . . X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here, I was faced with the decision to threaten ko by playing bamboo connection at 'b', or to take away a liberty from his group with 'a'. I opted for 'a', because I wanted to save everything and kill him.

However, it looks like he can kill me - something we both missed (probably due to time).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 164 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . O O O O . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O X O X O O O . O X . X . . . | $$ | . X X X O X . . X O X X O X . X . . . | $$ | . O . X X X X X X X . . X O . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . O . O O X . O X O . O X . . | $$ | . O O X X O . O X X X . X O . X X . . | $$ | . O . O X X X O O O . X X O O O . . . | $$ | . O . O X O O O . , O O O O X X X X . | $$ | . . O . O X X O O O X O X X O . X O . | $$ | . . . O . X O X X X X O X O . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . 1 O 6 . . O X X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . 2 X O . . . X O . | $$ | . . X . X O . . . . 4 3 5 O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . . O O X . O . . X . . X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The consolation is that I can probably kill his group on the right, but that's a lot of stones to lose in the center!

So I should probably have gone with bamboo, and endured the ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 164 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . O O O O . . . . . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O X O X O O O . O X . X . . . | $$ | . X X X O X . . X O X X O X . X . . . | $$ | . O . X X X X X X X . . X O . O X . . | $$ | . X O . . O . O O X . O X O . O X . . | $$ | . O O X X O . O X X X . X O . X X . . | $$ | . O . O X X X O O O . X X O O O . . . | $$ | . O . O X O O O . , O O O O X X X X . | $$ | . . O . O X X O O O X O X X O . X O . | $$ | . . . O B X O X X X X O X O . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . O . . . O X X O . X X O . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . X O . . . X O . | $$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . , . . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . . O O X . O . . X . . X . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · **#357**

Kirby wrote:

mitsun wrote:

You could post the game here anyway, then compare our comments to the professional review, and see how far off we were

Hehe, sure. I'll post a review a bit later - I've gotta get working for now. But that game can be summarized in that I misread and lost a group, tried to make a big moyo, he invaded, I misread and he got a good result. Then a bunch of weird ko stuff, and he ended up with more points.

Okay, as requested, here is the game from AYD that I lost. I lost a bit at the beginning, then started to overplay a lot. That led to the result I alluded to in my earlier comment.

Anyway, here is my review. P.S. I haven't had a review from In-seong, yet. These are just my own thoughts for now.

Kirby · **#358**

Some issues with this game.

Position 1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 43 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . . 2 O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . O O X . . . . . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I played

, above, but after :w2:

, I felt that I had done wrong. Before that, I should have probably just played there myself:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 43 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X W W . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . . B O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . O O X . . . . . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White's marked group is not weak, but not yet alive, either. So a running battle should be fine.

In the game, after making the mistake, I didn't read out a magical sequence to make my move work. Instead, I was angry, and I overplayed.

Instead of this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 43 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . . O O B . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . O O X . . . . . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

which I didn't read a good sequence for, I should just play the simple way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 43 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . B X X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . . O O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . O O X . . . . . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The result of my aggression after making this mistake led to huge problems later.

Position 2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 82 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . O O X O O O X X X X . . . B . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O X O O X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . O O X X O O X . X O . X . . . . | $$ | . O . O X X O O X . X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was too set on trying to kill white, and I didn't read a way to kill him. But I still played the aggressive way. Instead, I should just play simply:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 82 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O X . . . . . . . . 3 X O O . . | $$ | . O O X O O O X X X X . . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O X O O X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . O O X X O O X . X O . X 1 . . . | $$ | . O . O X X O O X . X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White may live, but I'm not risking as much this way.

Position 3

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 133 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . O . X O X . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . O . O . . . X X . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . B . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . O X X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . X X O . O X . . . . . . . X O O X . | $$ | . O O X O O O X X X X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . O X X X O X O O X O X X O O X X X | $$ | . O . O O X X O O X . X O O X O O X O | $$ | . O . O X X O O X . X X O . X O . O . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . X . . . O . O . . O | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this part, too, later in the game, I felt way behind, so I went all out. This puts too much on the table, and is too risky.

It went into an all out ko:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 149 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . O . X O X . | $$ | X O O X X X X X . O . O . . . X X . . | $$ | X O O O O O O . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . O X X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . X X O . O X . . . . . . . X O O X . | $$ | . O O X O O O X X X X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . O X X X O X O O X O X X O O X X X | $$ | . O . O O X X O O X . X O O X O O X O | $$ | . O . O X X O O X . X X O . X O . O . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . X . . . O . O . . O | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Which was exciting, but gambled the game too much. Yes, I think I was behind, but this doesn't seem the way to catch up.

Position 4

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 184 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O B . . O O X . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . X X O O O O X . X . . . O . X O X . | $$ | X O O X X X X X . O . O . . . X X . . | $$ | X O O O O O O X X . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | O . O . . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . O X X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . X X O . O X . . . . . . . X O O X . | $$ | . O O . O O O X X X X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . O , . . O X O O X O X X O O X X X | $$ | . O . O O . . O O X . X O O . O O X . | $$ | . O . O . . O O X . X X O O . O . O X | $$ | . . O . O O . X . X . X O O . O O O O | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This move was probably the last big decision point. The stones on the left are so weak, and I only get ko in the top left. It's not the time to play to get ko.

I should simply protect the group:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 184 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O . . . O O X . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . X X O O O O X . X . . . O . X O X . | $$ | X O O X X X X X . O . O . . . X X . . | $$ | X O O O O O O X X . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | O . O . . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . B . . O . . . . O X X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . X X O . O X . . . . . . . X O O X . | $$ | . O O . O O O X X X X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . O , . . O X O O X O X X O O X X X | $$ | . O . O O . . O O X . X O O . O O X . | $$ | . O . O . . O O X . X X O O . O . O X | $$ | . . O . O O . X . X . X O O . O O O O | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I can always go for ko in the top left later, and if he takes gote to kill, the game is still close and I may have a decent chance at winning.

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It appears that there is a big recurring theme in this game:
* After losing a bit in the beginning, I started to really overplay. I didn't read that the "aggressive way" worked, but I felt I had to play it.

Even when I'm behind, I must play the "normal way" and not the "aggressive way", unless I read a way that the aggressive way is working.

In perhaps all of the problem areas shown above, I didn't read the "aggressive way" working. I felt I was behind, so I just grabbed it. But this put in too much risk into the game.

Lesson: Play the "normal way" unless I am SURE that the "aggressive way" is working - even when I am losing. The game was still close enough that I might make a comeback by some slack moves. But always going for the aggressive way, I risk putting myself further behind, to a place where I cannot catch up.

ez4u · **#359**

You lost the ko in the upper left when you captured with 193. If you simply connect at 195 (1 below) you have the same number of liberties as in the game but you are one move ahead. You are alive in double ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc 2 Captures 2 stones $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X . X O . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X 1 X O . O O X . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | 2 X X O O O O X . X . . . O . X O X . | $$ | 3 O O X X X X X . O . O . . . X X . . | $$ | 4 O O O O O O X X . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | O . O . . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . O X X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . X X O . O X . . . . . . . X O O X . | $$ | . O O . O O O X X X X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . O X O O X O X X O O X X X | $$ | . O . O O . . O O X . X O O . O O X . | $$ | . O . O . . O O X . X X O O . O . O X | $$ | . . O . O O . X . X . X O O . O O O O | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

ez4u · **#360**

If Black had answered 204 from the other side (1 below), Black would have had one eye at C11. That would have left much less of a burden when Black plays out at 7. Combine this with the previous play in the upper left and I think Black would have been doing better than White.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . X . X O . X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X X X O . O O X . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | O X X O O O O X . X . . . O . X O X . | $$ | O O O X X X X X . O . O . . . X X . . | $$ | O O O O O O O X X . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | O . O . . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . 7 . . . X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 5 X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 2 3 O . . . . O X X . . . X . . . | $$ | . 4 X X O . . . . O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | 6 X X O . O X . . . . . . . X O O X . | $$ | . O O . O O O X X X X . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . O X O O X O X X O O X X X | $$ | . O . O O . . O O X . X O O . O O X . | $$ | . O . O . . O O X . X X O O X O . O X | $$ | . . O . O O . X . X . X O O . O O O O | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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