Kirby's Study Journal

Kirby · **#441**

I played another game on KGS today. I was white against KGS 2k.

Here's my review.

Overall, the game started OK, I think, but suddenly I put everything at big risk.

Kirby · **#442**

Problem Areas.

I listed several variations in the SGF, but I want to focus on these particularly result-changing ones.

Position 1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 93 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . X O X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X X X . . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O O O X X O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . O O O X . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . O . . X O O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X O . . O O . | $$ | . . . X . . . X O O X X X O . O O . O | $$ | . . . . . O . X . O O O O . O X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X X O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think the marked move is too much. It's too easy for him to cut. Instead, I should just take the stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 93 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W X . X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . X O X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X X X . . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O O O X X O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . O O O X . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . O . . X O O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X O . . O O . | $$ | . . . X . . . X O O X X X O . O O . O | $$ | . . . . . O . X . O O O O . O X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X X O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Position 2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 121 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | O . O X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . O W O . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . X O X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X X X . . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . X O O O X X O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . O O O X X O . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . O . O X O O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X O . . O O . | $$ | . . . X . . . X O O X X X O . O O . O | $$ | . . . . . O . X . O O O O . O X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X X O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I played above, but my group is really weak. I think this is better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 121 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | O . O X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . X O X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X X X . . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . X O O O X X O O O X . . . | $$ | . W . . . . . X . O O O X X O . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . O . O X O O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X O . . O O . | $$ | . . . X . . . X O O X X X O . O O . O | $$ | . . . . . O . X . O O O O . O X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X X O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Because of these issues, the left side turned into a really good situation for him/her. I should have been more careful around here.

ez4u · **#443**

When Black cuts with 108 at 1 below, White absolutely has to retake the ko with 2. Black 3 is the only threat left in the lower right. After Black retakes the ko, I like something like 6. If Black replies, ignoring the ko in order to jump to 8 seems interesting.

If White connects the ko later, Black has wasted a move with 1. If Black wins the ko, White is not yet dead in the corner, Black has to play one more move. Black can not finish off the corner in a way that prevents White from getting another sente play around B12. Fundamentally, life in the corner is smaller than the stones on the side. White would much rather make three moves in a row on the outside than live in gote in the corner as should have happened in the game (Black's capture with 118 was trivial, it was still ko). BTW, what was 111 instead of taking the ko? :scratch:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Position at move 108 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X 2 X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | O . O X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X O a . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . O . . 8 . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 7 X X X . . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . X O O O X X O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . O O O X X O . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . O 3 4 X O O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X O . . O O . | $$ | . . . X . . . X O O X X X O . O O . O | $$ | . . . . . O . X . O O O O . O X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X X O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · **#444**

I played c19 because I thought he would if I took back the ko. I guess it's no big deal.

Also, I agree that the side is more important than the corner. Really gave black a chance on the left.

ez4u · **#445**

Kirby wrote:

I played c19 because I thought he would if I took back the ko. I guess it's no big deal.

Also, I agree that the side is more important than the corner. Really gave black a chance on the left.

I assume that 3 below was also on your mind when you played 109 instead of retaking the ko. But that is incorrect reading. White does not mind 3. White plays 'a' as a ko threat next?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Ko in the corner. 4 connects $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | 7 6 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 8 1 O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X 2 X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | O . O X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X O a . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X X X . . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . O . . . X O O O X X O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . O O O X X O . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . O . . X O O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X O . . O O . | $$ | . . . X . . . X O O X X X O . O O . O | $$ | . . . . . O . X . O O O O . O X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X X O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · **#446**

Yes, I agree, ez4u. I think my "reading" during the game was more of a feeling than a logical sequence. I have that problem, sometimes. Some sequences I read out more clearly.

Other times, I get kind of a bad feeling about a certain path, so I stop reading.

I don't know why I do that. Probably better to read clearly every time.

Charles Matthews · **#447**

Kirby wrote:

In fact, probably the only areas that I really study are:

* Go problems (tsumego and tesuji)
* Joseki (sometimes)
* Opening patterns (once in awhile)

About what I figured. I gave an opening pattern because you probably need to study the third, to clear your head. (By the way, if I don't express an opinion on a line, it's because I don't feel strong enough to do so.)

There is a basic principle I give to beginners, that "the empty areas can be the most interesting areas on the board". For more advanced players, I might add "there is a lot of virtual stuff there". But no tesuji.

Anyway, I wouldn't recommend a rigid training plan, because your go needs to "flex".

Kirby · **#448**

Charles Matthews wrote:

Anyway, I wouldn't recommend a rigid training plan, because your go needs to "flex".

Thanks, Charles. By this, do you mean that I should be more creative?

(I guess I need to improve my ability to understand comments written in English, too!)

Kirby · **#449**

Good News: I broke 2d on KGS! Technically, I've done it once before, but I think it just drifted up, then drifted back down.

Bad News: I played a pretty big blunder this game, because I misread. His bottom got really big. I was only able to redeem myself, because he died.

Here's the SGF file, along with my review.

Please note that I'm a little scared, now. While I've drifted up to 2d once before, I've never won a game as 2d. I'd like to break that barrier. So I need to be very careful next game.

Kirby · **#450**

Problem Areas

Position 1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think the marked move is too small, and hurts the flexibility of the 4th line stone. Instead, I prefer to simply approach the bottom. Maybe wide.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . W . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Position 2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 53 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . O O . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . X O X O O | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , X O O . . X O O O | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . X X . O . X O X X | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . W X . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think the marked move is a big mistake. I prefer double hane:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 53 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . O O . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . 4 . . . . X O X O O | $$ | . O X X . . . . . 3 2 . . . . X X X O | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , X O O . . X O O O | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . X X . O . X O X X | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . 1 . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Position 3

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 77 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . O . . O O . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . X O X O O | $$ | . O X X . . . . O . X . X O . X X X O | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , X O O X X X O O O | $$ | . . O X . X . . O . X X X O X X O X X | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . X O O O X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Marked move is terrible. I have to get over this kind of habit-type move. Instead, I want to play here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 77 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . O . . O O . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . X O X O O | $$ | . O X X . . . . O . X . X O . X X X O | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , X O O X X X O O O | $$ | . . O X . X . . O . X X X O X X O X X | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . X O O O X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

These were pretty major mistakes. But I guess he let me off easy.

Bill Spight · **#451**

I thought that you were going to suggest this play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Edit: BTW, if you are going to approach the bottom right corner, . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Daidaigeima $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The daidaigeima is an often overlooked option.

Kirby · **#452**

Bill Spight wrote:

I thought that you were going to suggest this play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Interesting idea, Bill. I never thought of this variation. I imagine one possible variation would be this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It might be a good strategy. From my current perspective, the biggest fear I'd have with this variation is for the white cutting stones to become a weak group. Black could then feasibly make territory on the left and bottom more easily then.

On the other hand, maybe if white turns at 'a', black's wall isn't that efficient.

It's difficult for me to judge this position.

Kirby · **#453**

By the way, I am a bit behind on memorizing pro games this week. I still have two more to do, and it's already Saturday. I guess I will have to memorize two of them today.

Uberdude · **#454**

Kirby wrote:

Interesting idea, Bill. I never thought of this variation. I imagine one possible variation would be this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It might be a good strategy. From my current perspective, the biggest fear I'd have with this variation is for the white cutting stones to become a weak group. Black could then feasibly make territory on the left and bottom more easily then.

That's because white 2 here is the 'many groups chaotic fighting style'. It might be worth considering going for cleaner trades by pushing a lot which helps black on one side, but if you get to munch the other that's worth it (though I'm not saying it works here, white's corner has some weakness like a-b-c which means you probably can't capture the wall, you need to read).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . b a . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · **#455**

Uberdude wrote:

Kirby wrote:

Interesting idea, Bill. I never thought of this variation. I imagine one possible variation would be this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It might be a good strategy. From my current perspective, the biggest fear I'd have with this variation is for the white cutting stones to become a weak group. Black could then feasibly make territory on the left and bottom more easily then.

That's because white 2 here is the 'many groups chaotic fighting style'. It might be worth considering going for cleaner trades by pushing a lot which helps black on one side, but if you get to munch the other that's worth it (though I'm not saying it works here, white's corner has some weakness like a-b-c which means you probably can't capture the wall, you need to read).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . b a . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If you can't kill it, do you think that playing those surrounding moves is worth giving black the territory on the left? It's nice to have influence, but it's not a perfect wall, either, since there is aji.

Bill Spight · **#456**

Kirby wrote:

Interesting idea, Bill. I never thought of this variation.

The amateur disease. To crib from the Book of Common Prayer,

The Book of Common Players wrote:

We have read those lines that we ought not to have read,
And we have left unread those lines that we ought to have read.

Quote:

I imagine one possible variation would be this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It might be a good strategy. From my current perspective, the biggest fear I'd have with this variation is for the white cutting stones to become a weak group. Black could then feasibly make territory on the left and bottom more easily then.

Oh, ye of little faith! As the Good Book says:

Quote:

I will fear no evil,
For I am giving three stones.

Kirby wrote:

It's difficult for me to judge this position.

How easy will it be for your weaker opponent?

Remember, your job as White is to make it difficult for Black. And I don't mean hamete after hamete.

Quote:

You may have doubts but
A cut is just a cut,
An eye is just an eye.

OK, let's take a look at this position again.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Two weak groups $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B W W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

True, the

stones are vulnerable. They have only four liberties, not enough, as Wilcox pointed out, for tactical security. But what about the :bc:

stones? They also have only four liberties.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Combining attack and defense $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B W W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

bolsters the :wc:

stones while threatening the :bc:

stones. How bad can it be? Especially when White is the stronger player?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Fight fiercely $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 a . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B W W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White might think about extending to "a" instead of :w3:

, but that would give Black 5 liberties. Fear no evil!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Make a fist before striking $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 3 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B W W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . O 7 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is honte.

protects his group. The exchange on the left side has been good for White. Now that the :wc:

stones are secure, :w7:

returns to the attack against the bottom left Black group.

Edited to correct the quote from the Book of Common Players.

Kirby · **#457**

I like the hane of :w3:

the best out of this sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Make a fist before striking $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 3 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B W W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . O 7 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't think I would have considered it. Maybe another example from your common prayer thing.

When black is pressed down on the left, it certainly looks like white hasn't given up that much in exchange for strengthening his group.

I like the idea.

ez4u · **#458**

And after Black cuts?...

Bill Spight · **#459**

ez4u wrote:

And after Black cuts?...

I left that as an exercise for Kirby.

He could ask himself, What would Dave do? Or Uberdude? Or Sakata?

Hint:

Kirby · **#460**

What I thought after reading Bill's post was this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If white atari'd underneath, then it's second line crawling:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 3 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Didn't seem that bad. So if black atari the other way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Then play 'a' $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 6 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 3 4 9 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . a 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So I guess there's this left:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Make a fist before striking $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 3 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 8 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

which seems like quite a reasonable fight for white to me.

That's why I thought :w3:

was such a cool move.

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Now that ez4u has questioned it, though, maybe I need to think more carefully... It can't be that easy. I'll post again if I find a new discovery.

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