Did AlphaGo help spread the popularity of the game?

Uberdude · **#21**

NiallMcC wrote:

tj86430 wrote:

NiallMcC wrote:

Lee Sedol was the last human to be beaten by a computer.

Should there be a "not" somewhere in this sentence?

No. Computers beat the pants off me years ago. And beat most amateurs. Professnonals have fallen lately, and finally the last and best of us.

End of an era, not a beginning.

So maybe you meant "to beat" not "to be beaten by". Switching a verb into the passive form swaps the object and subject of the beating. And by "computer" your presumably mean "the best computer"?. Because your sentence means that after Lee Sedol in every future human versus computer match, the human will win. However, I saw a computer (CrazyStone), beat a human on KGS just yesterday, so it is obviously false. And even GnuGo could beat any of the 7 billion humans in the world who don't know how to play Go.

tj86430 · **#22**

NiallMcC wrote:

tj86430 wrote:

NiallMcC wrote:

Lee Sedol was the last human to be beaten by a computer.

Should there be a "not" somewhere in this sentence?

No. Computers beat the pants off me years ago. And beat most amateurs. Professnonals have fallen lately, and finally the last and best of us.

End of an era, not a beginning.

Ok, I guess that is one way to understand it.

To me "last human to X" is equal to "no human in future will X", which in this case would mean that no one will ever be beaten by a computer after this (and I think there will be plenty of people to be beaten by computer)

That's why I thought it might have made sense in the form "Lee Sedol was the last human not to be beaten by a computer.", meaning that he was the last player being able to win against (the best of) computers, after him everyone will always lose against (best of) computers.

But, all this is probably because English is not my native language.

Uberdude · **#23**

tj86430 wrote:

But, all this is probably because English is not my native language.

Niall's post doesn't make sense to me (see above, I agree with your interpretation), and English is my native language.

John Fairbairn · **#24**

Quote:

Niall's post doesn't make sense to me ...

Really? Substitute a couple of words:

Lee Sedol was the last human to be beaten by a computer
Lee Sedol was the last hurdle to be overcome by a computer

The first sentence is badly written, of course, being ambiguous, but it makes perfect sense.

tj86430 · **#25**

John Fairbairn wrote:

Quote:

Niall's post doesn't make sense to me ...

Really? Substitute a couple of words:

Lee Sedol was the last human to be beaten by a computer
Lee Sedol was the last hurdle to be overcome by a computer

The first sentence is badly written, of course, being ambiguous, but it makes perfect sense.

I'm guessing the key here is whether last means "last ever" or "last so far"

(I sometimes have this problem in Finnish, too. But if Finnish is used properly, "last ever" is "viimeinen" and "last so far" is "viimeisin". In my mind I always translate "last" meaning "viimeinen", while I guess it can also mean "viimeisin". But, couldn't one use the word "latest" to mean "last so far"?)

Boidhre · **#26**

tj86430 wrote:

I'm guessing the key here is whether last means "last ever" or "last so far"

(I sometimes have this problem in Finnish, too. But if Finnish is used properly, "last ever" is "viimeinen" and "last so far" is "viimeisin". In my mind I always translate "last" meaning "viimeinen", while I guess it can also mean "viimeisin". But, couldn't one use the word "latest" to mean "last so far"?)

"Lee Sedol was the last human to play Alpha Go" and "Lee Sedol is the latest human to play Alpha Go" and "Lee Sedol was the latest human to play Alpha Go." (In the last one the past tense could be read as applying to Lee Sedol, i.e. suggesting that he's dead, in the middle one it implies the match series is ongoing).

Cleaner to just say "Lee Sedol was the most recent human to play Alpha Go." Avoids the confusion. Or a construction like "The last/latest human player to play Alpha Go was Lee Sedol." I prefer "most recent," last implies some kind of finality for me, latest implies some kind of ongoing thing. "Most recent" doesn't imply anything other than the order pros played the AI in.

Bill Spight · **#27**

wineandgolover wrote:

I think he meant that LSD was the last human to beat a computer (of AG+ strength, of course)

If you want to beat AG, try LSD? :lol:

NiallMcC · **#28**

Hehehe, such confusion

!

Lee being the last to be beaten means everyone else was already beaten (ok, an untested hypothesis, but lee being the best one can assume he'd beat everyone).

If john is the last kid to be fed, the others are not hungry. If lee is the last to lose, everyone else previously lost.. seems obvious to me!

tj86430 · **#29**

NiallMcC wrote:

Hehehe, such confusion

!

Lee being the last to be beaten means everyone else was already beaten (ok, an untested hypothesis, but lee being the best one can assume he'd beat everyone).

I C. "Beaten" doesn't necessarily mean someone has actually played and lost, but also that someone may not have played, but if he did, he would lose. (since there are a lot of players, present and future, who haven't played against computer/alphago yet, but if they did they would lose)

daal · **#30**

Lee Sedol was the last human left standing in the battle against computer supremacy.

Bill Spight · **#31**

NiallMcC wrote:

Hehehe, such confusion

!

Including yours, OC.

Quote:

Lee being the last to be beaten means everyone else was already beaten (ok, an untested hypothesis,

Not an untested hypothesis, an untrue statement.

Quote:

If john is the last kid to be fed, the others are not hungry.

Ever heard of Oliver Twist?

NiallMcC · **#32**

daal wrote:

Lee Sedol was the last human left standing in the battle against computer supremacy.

That would be a better way of saying it

goTony · **#33**

Kirby wrote:

Stefany93 wrote:

Why do you wish it didn't happen? I also wished it didn't happen, but I am curious if your reason is the same as mine, lol.

My feelings are complicated, so it is difficult to precisely express the reason.

Someone from another thread expressed it better than I've been able to: for several years now, I've associated my personal identity with the game of go. For my job, I am a programmer, but more than a "computer scientist", I've associated myself with being a "go player". With AlphaGo's breakthrough, the game of go feels to have become a subset of "computer science", rather than an orthogonal endeavor. If I want to get closer to solving go, it would be better to pursue a computer solution, rather than studying go.

I used to feel "unique" or "special" in some ways. I had a unique interest in a game that not many people knew about or were good at. I had special knowledge of how the game worked. It made me, personally, feel special.

But in March, that "special" part of me died. The knowledge I've been pursuing through go no longer feels unique or special. It's just some extensive study I've done on one of the many problems that computers have solved. It makes what I've been studying feel less special and less significant. It makes go seem ordinary.

It's not just with go. Another "special" part of me has been my study of language. I thought it was neat to know Korean and Japanese when many of my peers didn't. It gave me some sort of pride. But I read the other day that in a matter of years, foreign languages won't be an issue. Computer translation will have advanced such that people could carry microphones to do live translation. When that day comes, my Korean and Japanese abilities will not be special. They will not be unique. They will just be some obscure hobby I spent my time on, which doesn't really matter, since computers can do it better anyway.

Advancement in technology continues to make our lives easier. But as computers solve problems and make the world an easier place to live, it makes me personally feel less and less significant...

And perhaps, reminds me of my mortality, which computers do not share.

Alpha GO did win and rather convincingly. But did it enjoy the game? Could it say after the third game; "I am sorry Lee you have lost the match, and are not a challenge I wish to do something else with my time."

Did it know fear in the fourth game? Could it show awe at some moves the way the professional commentators did of the best of Lees and Alpha's moves? Will it share its memories of the match? Ultimately it is just a sophisticated calculator. Of course these "calculators" are more and more capable and are going to run most things in the near future.... Yes Lee showed he was a true champion, who fought to the end against nigh impossible odds. My Hat is off to him.

Krama · **#34**

goTony wrote:

Kirby wrote:

Stefany93 wrote:

Why do you wish it didn't happen? I also wished it didn't happen, but I am curious if your reason is the same as mine, lol.

My feelings are complicated, so it is difficult to precisely express the reason.

Someone from another thread expressed it better than I've been able to: for several years now, I've associated my personal identity with the game of go. For my job, I am a programmer, but more than a "computer scientist", I've associated myself with being a "go player". With AlphaGo's breakthrough, the game of go feels to have become a subset of "computer science", rather than an orthogonal endeavor. If I want to get closer to solving go, it would be better to pursue a computer solution, rather than studying go.

I used to feel "unique" or "special" in some ways. I had a unique interest in a game that not many people knew about or were good at. I had special knowledge of how the game worked. It made me, personally, feel special.

But in March, that "special" part of me died. The knowledge I've been pursuing through go no longer feels unique or special. It's just some extensive study I've done on one of the many problems that computers have solved. It makes what I've been studying feel less special and less significant. It makes go seem ordinary.

It's not just with go. Another "special" part of me has been my study of language. I thought it was neat to know Korean and Japanese when many of my peers didn't. It gave me some sort of pride. But I read the other day that in a matter of years, foreign languages won't be an issue. Computer translation will have advanced such that people could carry microphones to do live translation. When that day comes, my Korean and Japanese abilities will not be special. They will not be unique. They will just be some obscure hobby I spent my time on, which doesn't really matter, since computers can do it better anyway.

Advancement in technology continues to make our lives easier. But as computers solve problems and make the world an easier place to live, it makes me personally feel less and less significant...

And perhaps, reminds me of my mortality, which computers do not share.

Alpha GO did win and rather convincingly. But did it enjoy the game? Could it say after the third game; "I am sorry Lee you have lost the match, and are not a challenge I wish to do something else with my time."

Did it know fear in the fourth game? Could it show awe at some moves the way the professional commentators did of the best of Lees and Alpha's moves? Will it share its memories of the match? Ultimately it is just a sophisticated calculator. Of course these "calculators" are more and more capable and are going to run most things in the near future.... Yes Lee showed he was a true champion, who fought to the end against nigh impossible odds. My Hat is off to him.

Does it matter?

Sneegurd · **#35**

Go community goes through the same reactions as Chess community in the 90s. "It is just a calculator". It's a psychological thing and does indeed not matter. Technically. Computers will win all Go games against humans one day. So what. Changes happen.

cyclops · **#36**

I hope to see a program soon that given a ruleset computes the value B ( or W ) at least gets from any position (P) if he starts and plays optimal. We will have Val(P,B) = max(- Val(P+,W)) where we run over all positions P+ produced from P by a legal black move. It seems it takes far less time to write such program than to have it finished.

Did AlphaGo help spread the popularity of the game?

Who is online