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 Post subject: Angst: Go vs chess
Post #1 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:29 pm 
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It seems to me the go players differ from chess players in their approach playing/learning. With beginner chess players we do some teaching but mostly let them play games (with occasional postmortem), while go beginners seem to spend a lot of time playing "instruction games" against advanced players which seem more about teaching than playing and far less time just playing against other beginners.

Does this seem correct, and if so, why is there the difference?

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 Post subject: Re: Angst: Go vs chess
Post #2 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:51 pm 
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Beginners playing beginners is fine in go, I think.

But:
1. Go has a steep learning curve (you get a lot better in a little bit of time)
2. There aren't as many Go players as chess players in "the west"

Because of 1 and 2, it is uncommon to have an abundance of equally skilled players. I suspect that it's easier to find even games as a beginner in chess.

But even in chess, you can learn things from stronger players, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Angst: Go vs chess
Post #3 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:05 pm 
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While I don't know if Go players play more study games than Chess players, I think there is indeed a difference, caused by the type of game.

In Chess, there isn't really a way to hold back. Almost everything is all or nothing.

In Go, you can win a game by 0.5 points, or by 121.5 points. In Chess, you either win, you lose, or it's a draw. There is nothing in between these three options.

In Go, you can give a handicap by letting your opponent place extra stones, lowering white's komi, or even give black points in advance (reverse komi). In Chess, you can give move odds (have white play more than one move), or material odds (take material off the board; knight's odds, for example, or rook vs bishop). In Go, the player who plays against the handicap just has to play more aggressively to make up these points; in Chess however, a handicap drastically changes the nature of the game, including the openings you can play because of the missing moves and/or pieces.

In Go, you can play a move that gains you 3 points, one that gains you 8 points, or 10 points. So, a teacher can intentionally play slow moves, to allow the student to see that there is a bigger point on the board. In Chess, you'll have to identify the main imbalance on the board and play the move that either attacks or defends it (depending if the imbalance is on the opponent's side or your side). If you don't, you might lose the game then and there.

Chess, by nature, is one big clash between two armies, that is either highly tactical and with deep combinations, or extremely positional. The entire game often hinges on taking or losing control of one particular square; keeping or losing one pawn, or even on which file the one remaining pawn is (which is important in K+Q+P vs K+Q for example); sometimes you can lose a game if you have the black squared bishop, while you would have drawn it if you had the white squared one. So, in Chess, there is often one main, extremely important point of contention that emerges during the game. In Go, there are many clashes on the board potentially multiple at once, that can influence each other from across the board.

In Go, you don't have to go full out to win. You can still win while intentionally leaving moves/points on the board that your opponent can take; you leave them so he can see those moves/points, and thus learn from that. In chess, you can do that as well, for example put a piece in such a way that it can be taken by a skewer check or a knight's fork, but as soon as the student sees it, the game is (probably) over, while in Go, you can create many such opportunities for the student, and STILL win as the teacher... by 3.5 points. The student learns a lot, and by losing by only a small margin he feels that he has played well.

Also, Go is very hard to grasp on 19x19 for beginners. With two exceptions (suicide and ko), basically everything is allowed. In Chess, there is only one goal: kill the king, either by brute force, or positional advantage. Chess is less abstract, and thus easier to play as a full game by a beginner.

I think that because of these differences, Go lends itself much more to be played in a teaching game mode (IMHO, it actually invites it), while Chess lends itself more to start playing full games as soon as you know all the rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Angst: Go vs chess
Post #4 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:09 pm 
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Those are all great points and all seem to say that go is more amenable to teaching games, with the exception of Kirby's (2) which I guess is often true, making teaching games almost necessary. However, for me this makes learning go less enjoyable and I wonder if this causes many beginners to quit -- as it sometimes seems more like school than play... (Also, that lack of quick games is an obastacle...)

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 Post subject: Re: Angst: Go vs chess
Post #5 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:15 pm 
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If you're playing on the internet, teaching games are much less common. They exist and are certainly appreciated, but I don't think I've ever played someone more than three stones stronger / weaker than me online (and those weren't teaching games, just properly handicapped games), and I don't think my experience is uncommon. At the local go clubs, however, it's not uncommon to show up and find there are no weak players who regularly come. Then a high handicap / teaching game becomes the only option, though I still think those are fun. :-)

(While I'm still not a strong player, I'm good enough that I can usually find someone within a few stones of me at the local clubs these days.)

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 Post subject: Re: Angst: Go vs chess
Post #6 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:16 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
Beginners playing beginners is fine in go, I think.

But:
1. Go has a steep learning curve (you get a lot better in a little bit of time)
2. There aren't as many Go players as chess players in "the west"

Because of 1 and 2, it is uncommon to have an abundance of equally skilled players. I suspect that it's easier to find even games as a beginner in chess.


I second all of this, except that I think beginners playing beginners is better (more than fine).
I'm talking about the initial, say, 10 games especially. Playing stronger players, even with handicap, feels too much like teaching and not enough like fun. Having two players playing haphazardly together with a few teaching inputs is ideal imo (especially with young players). But, as Kirby said, reason 2.

(I'm excepting a certain kind of player that play games online between the club meetings. Then each teaching game is a smaller part of his overall go experience)

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 Post subject: Re: Angst: Go vs chess
Post #7 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:54 pm 
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ericf wrote:
Those are all great points and all seem to say that go is more amenable to teaching games, with the exception of Kirby's (2) which I guess is often true, making teaching games almost necessary. However, for me this makes learning go less enjoyable and I wonder if this causes many beginners to quit -- as it sometimes seems more like school than play... (Also, that lack of quick games is an obastacle...)


Find another beginner around your level, and play them.

I think I only got over "the hump", since I had a rival I wanted to beat early on.

Regarding quick games, just play on a smaller board - or use a clock.

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 Post subject: Re: Angst: Go vs chess
Post #8 Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:46 am 
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Once you learn the rules of chess plus maybe watch few games you can pretty much play and have fun. You will still play bad moves but it doesn't matter, the flow seems natural in chess and beginners will be able to finish the game without problems.

In go it's different. Once you learn the rules and see few games by stronger players well...

Beginners will have no idea what to play in the beginning. It will be boring.

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 Post subject: Re: Angst: Go vs chess
Post #9 Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 12:09 am 
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Thanks for the info
simpson viva9988

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 Post subject: Re: Angst: Go vs chess
Post #10 Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:20 am 
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Krama wrote:
Beginners will have no idea what to play in the beginning. It will be boring.


This isn't the general experience I have putting beginners against beginners. I prefer having beginners play other beginners when it's possible to do so.

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