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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #341 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:09 pm 
Judan
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Chew Terr wrote:
...
Okay, the best that I can figure out is that my partners want to play for a cut this way. I'm concerned, though, because it seems like our last move pushed black to defend, weakening our top group. I don't know if we have the stability to play the cut. And I'm not certain that this is, in fact, the plan my partners want me to carry out. However, it's this or make a defensive move, and Joaz's last move seems to be anything but defensive. This seems fairly sente, because of the threat of M12, so we may be able to get it off safely. I should have avoided such complicated situations. Gresil is keeping up well enough, it seems.


Well, I'm flattered that Chew Terr thinks that I know what is going on. I'm just playing what think that Shapenaji intends. :lol:

As Terr says, this is the only thing that is consistent with the previous move. Or two previous moves.

So...


I approve.

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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #342 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:57 pm 
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I approve.
I'm not worried about the top side, black doesn't have time to kill us.

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #343 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:37 pm 
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Wait, really? Hmmmm...

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Offline Gresil
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #344 Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:14 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 85A W37 B 42
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . 1 O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




This move is probably still obvious, but the next one will be difficult to determine. (edit: nope, there's no real choice)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 85A W37 B 42
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . 1 O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X 2 X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . 3 5 6 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O 4 O 8 . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 85A W37 B 42
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . 1 O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X 2 X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O 5 4 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . 7 O 6 O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I believe there's a threat of a capturing race. I can live in the top, probably, but white can abuse my left side group. I think I prefer this option.


Edit: the second diag is baloney. White will play like this, of course, and the result is a transposition of the first option:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 85A W37 B 42
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . 1 O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X 2 X X 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . 5 3 6 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O 4 O 7 0 . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But do I have anything to use against the white top right?

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #345 Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:49 pm 
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Approved.

Gresil is a little too attached to the N13 stones, I think, but other than that he has the idea.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #346 Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:29 pm 
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Explosion in...

3


2


1

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #347 Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 9:29 pm 
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Approved.
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #348 Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 9:38 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 86A W37 B 42
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X W X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Okay, I do this for two reasons. First, separating opponent groups should help us in this fight, though it's scary to let black weaken a top a little like they have (and may get to again). Secondly, from the metagaming standpoint, I don't think my teammates would have let me push unless we intended to cut, as it would be major aji-keshi.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #349 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:49 am 
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I approve. It is the only move.


But the previous move is fodder for serious post-mortem analysis.
Violence wrote:
Approved.


I was sure that V would change this. I thought that M12 was better for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 85
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . 5 . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O 4 O X O O . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O 3 2 O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X 1 X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #350 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:42 am 
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Joaz: your way leaves us with a piano, our way merely a bowling ball. Either way it's not fun to get one dropped on you but one might not be fatal.

Plus our way gives us options. Our next move will be at L11, giving white the choice of where to be cut in two.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #351 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:53 am 
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daniel_the_smith wrote:
Joaz: your way leaves us with a piano, our way merely a bowling ball. Either way it's not fun to get one dropped on you but one might not be fatal...


But you can duck the piano completely by abandoning the four H17 stones. The piano squashes them, and you take most the northeast quarter of the board.
When the dust settles, there are no undecided life and death issues. Black's territory is cash in the bank, whereas white's potential is yet to be realized.

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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #352 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:09 am 
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Approved

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #353 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:10 am 
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Oh, you think white would die up there? :mrgreen:

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #354 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:20 pm 
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Hm? I'm sorry, you think we're in some sort of danger?
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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #355 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:44 pm 
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Violence wrote:
Hm? I'm sorry, you think we're in some sort of danger?


... yes :twisted:

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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #356 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:46 pm 
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I know I've commented before about this game, but I have to say it again: This is AWESOME. Thanks for taking the time to do this, folks.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #357 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:30 pm 
Judan
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daniel_the_smith wrote:
Oh, you think white would die up there? :mrgreen:


Starting from the position of the last diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X 1 0 . . . 6 7 . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X 4 . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O 3 5 O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X 8 9 . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O O O X O O 2 . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O X O O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...it looks bad for white.

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #358 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:44 pm 
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Well, I don't think you're obligated to play :w1: there, you could... you know, help the endangered group... :scratch:

Anyway, back to the game... Gresil? Your move I think?

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #359 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:17 pm 
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For Gresil:
I'm glad THEY know what they're doing enough to talk trash! Are you feeling like you're having as hard time treading water as I am? :tmbup:

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #360 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:22 pm 
Judan
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daniel_the_smith wrote:
Well, I don't think you're obligated to play :w1: there, you could... you know, help the endangered group... :scratch:
...



So it would seem. But after some long analysis, I come to the conclusion that M16 is the vital point, and when black gets there first, helping the endangered group is tricky.

O14 is such a weak spot that it cannot be covered indirectly:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X 2 . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O 1 . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . 8 6 7 X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O O O X O O 4 5 X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O X O O X O 3 O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...white must play :w3: like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X 2 . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O 1 . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . . . X O 0 . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O O O X O O . 3 X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O X O O X O 5 O 7 9 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X X X X 4 6 8 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...which continues like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O 0 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O O . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O O O X O O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O X O O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X X X X X X X 2 3 |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . O . . . , 4 5 . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . 8 9 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 1 O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . a 2 . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O O . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . . b X . X . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O O O X O O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O X O O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X X X X X X X X O |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . O . . . , X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In this position, black can take territory with :b2:, and white cannot reply with 'a', because of the weakness at 'b'. White has two weak groups, black has one. H17 still holds.

These diagrams don't cover everything, but they illustate the general idea that white still has two weak groups that will be a burden, so it may be better to grab H17 when possible.

_________________
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