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 Post subject: Resigning a won game...
Post #1 Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:12 pm 
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Hi all,

I've been meaning for some time to post one of my KGS games on here for critiquing by you guys - but most of my games (whether I win or lose) I'm too ashamed to do so as I already pretty much know where I blundered. But here's one I just played where I don't think I did anything too awful, at least until late on.

I was pretty pleased with how the middle-game seemed to go - very happy to have managed to live inside his moyo on the left (no idea whether or not I should have - but it felt a good time to try), and even happier when I managed to kill off his own invasion in the lower-right (I'm pretty sure he could have lived by playing R2 before I got to). But after that my position seemed to fall apart with him making further and further incursions into my territory (being in byoyomi didn't help - I guess I have to learn to play quicker), and eventually I resigned when I could see very little left for me compared to his still large chunk of the left-hand side. Then I was shocked to find that the score estimator still had me leading by double figures in the final position!

So, as well as welcoming all criticism (hopefully constructive) of my play, I'd also appreciate some comments on whether or not the score estimate in the final position is accurate or not (I'm aware that the KGS SE facility is notorious for its inaccuracies), and how I can quickly count to tell who's leading. (Unless I'm playing a slow game and can afford to count every point painstakingly, I tend to rely on feel, and it really felt that I was a long way behind in the final position :sad:)

Thanks in advance,

Robin.


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 Post subject: Re: Resigning a won game...
Post #2 Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:36 pm 
Judan
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15: E3 is dual sente.

23: This develops two groups placed so that white can split them. D18 is way better.

49: Defending this group - even if you live - is going to cost you more than the group is worth. It would be better to make a reducing move around K12 or K13 threatening to rescure the group, and make hinm expend moves to seal it in.

69: Right idea, but way too small. Try something like L10 or K10.

145:How many points was that worth? There are plays like N8, A10, A3, etc

It looks like you got carried away, fighting when you did not need to. You have a nice capture down in the lower right, enough to win the game :clap: , but you kept playing as if you had to win the game a second time.
Stop to count every once in a while. Adjust your strategy accordingly. ( Especially if your strategy is resigning. :razz: )

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning a won game...
Post #3 Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:49 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . O . . . . . .
$$ | . X O . . O . . . .
$$ | . X W . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . O . . . .
$$ | X . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . X O O . . . . . .
$$ | . X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O O . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

White has just played the marked stone, and black tenukied. White to kill.

Hint:
Throw in somewhere, then hane.

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning a won game...
Post #4 Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:14 am 
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Thanks for the comments, Joaz. You're quite right that I should stop to count more often, of course - I'm just incredibly slow at it, and was hoping to get some advice on how to do it quick enough that I can manage it when in byoyomi in an online game. (But, looking at the game again this morning, I think I resigned just because I let myself get too depressed at the bad things I'd let happen in the last dozen or so moves - 20 moves before the end I was definitely leading massively (and I knew it), so my position at the end could hardly have been lost, but for some reason I'd managed to forget this :roll:

All of your comments I find absolutely fair :) 145 you're definitely quite right about - I rarely get to play a half-decent endgame online because I always have too little time left, and I must have made that play on pure instinct rather than actual thought. Your comment on 69 I find most interesting - I spent a while on that move and did even seriously consider playing K10, but while it looked visually "big" I thought my framework would be too lose (plus I was worried about playing too close to white's strong-looking wall).

Dusk Eagle - I'm ashamed to say I can't see how to kill, even given the hint. And bear in mind that I spent a while looking at that during the game deciding whether it was safe to tenuki, before deciding that it was. I'll give it a bit more thought though :)

[about a minute later] Oh, I see it now. In fact I think there are two ways:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . O . . . . . .
$$ | 3 X O . . O . . . .
$$ | 4 X W . . . . . . .
$$ | 2 1 X . . O . . . .
$$ | X . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . X O O . . . . . .
$$ | 5 X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O O . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . O . . . . . .
$$ | 1 X O . . O . . . .
$$ | 2 X W . . . . . . .
$$ | 4 3 X . . O . . . .
$$ | X . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . X O O . . . . . .
$$ | 5 X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O O . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning a won game...
Post #5 Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:57 am 
Judan
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robinz wrote:
... Oh, I see it now. In fact I think there are two ways:
...

or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . O . . . . . .
$$ | 1 X O . . O . . . .
$$ | 2 X W . . . . . . .
$$ | 4 3 X . . O . . . .
$$ | X . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . X O O . . . . . .
$$ | 5 X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O O . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


Only one that I see:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W a and b are miai
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . O . . . . . .
$$ | 1 X O . . O . . . .
$$ | a X W . . . . . . .
$$ | . 2 X . . O . . . .
$$ | X . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . X O O . . . . . .
$$ | b X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O O . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning a won game...
Post #6 Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:16 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . O . . . . . .
$$ | 3 X O . . O . . . .
$$ | 4 X W . . . . . . .
$$ | 2 1 X . . O . . . .
$$ | X . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . X O O . . . . . .
$$ | 5 X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O O . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

Correct. Black's shape is referred to on Sensei's as the Flying Saucer Shape. You don't need to know the name, but knowing it's status is good :). Note the importance of the :wc: stone: without it, :w1: won't kill.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . O . . . . . .
$$ | 1 X O . . O . . . .
$$ | 2 X W . . . . . . .
$$ | 4 3 X . . O . . . .
$$ | X . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . X O O . . . . . .
$$ | 5 X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O O . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

This one is incorrect. Oftentimes the hane first is good, but in this case black has a refutation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . O . . . . . .
$$ | 1 X O . . O . . . .
$$ | b X W . . . . . . .
$$ | . 2 X . . O . . . .
$$ | X . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . X O O . . . . . .
$$ | a X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O O . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

'a' and 'b' become miai to live.

Joaz: When white plays like that, black lives ;-) .

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Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning a won game...
Post #7 Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:48 pm 
Judan
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Dusk Eagle wrote:
..
Joaz: When white plays like that, black lives ;-) ...



That's why I said that I only saw one.

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Post #8 Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:21 am 
Dies in gote

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robinz wrote:
...

All of your comments I find absolutely fair :) 145 you're definitely quite right about - I rarely get to play a half-decent endgame online because I always have too little time left, and I must have made that play on pure instinct rather than actual thought. Your comment on 69 I find most interesting - I spent a while on that move and did even seriously consider playing K10, but while it looked visually "big" I thought my framework would be too lose (plus I was worried about playing too close to white's strong-looking wall).


Going through it, that's exactly what I thought. I even nodded my head approvingly when I saw your move, then read Joaz' comment. It seems every time I try a move like K10 in this situation the guy just waltzes in...

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning a won game...
Post #9 Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:19 pm 
Oza

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robinz wrote:
You're quite right that I should stop to count more often, of course - I'm just incredibly slow at it, and was hoping to get some advice on how to do it quick enough that I can manage it when in byoyomi in an online game.

the best lessons on the net for learning to count are DrStraw's lessons here:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?SteveFawthrop%2FCounting

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