we know who... its a moderator.

I don't think its actually crucial to know which one, but it might be nice to know.

I am not sure I agree with all of your ideas. Here is what I think, in no particular order.

1) Voting on moderators (the 'vote of confidence' you mention) would transpose being a moderator into winning a popularity contest. Result: most successful (most voted for) moderators would be those not doing their jobs properly. Unless you seriously assume people would vote reasonably... but then you must be on another planet, somewhere.

1.5) Having said the above - I understand that there is a need to weed out bad moderators. But this should be done by the forum owner, possibly, not by the community.

2) The purpose of the moderators is not to serve, it is to moderate. Even if the community decides the forum guidelines are too strict at times, unless the guidelines get changed, moderators have to stick to them. Again - its not a popularity contest.

3) Even if we assume that the moderators' job is to serve, it is not really to serve the community, but to serve the forum. There is a slight distinction... the forum might serve the community, or not, depends on the guidelines and the needs of the community at the moment. What if the community decides (by majority vote, or something) that this forum would be nicer with links to indecent sites?

4) I always found it debatable that a forum is there to serve the community either. Call me a cynic, but I see each service as serving its creator/owner in some fashion. Even if it is a free service. Might be a commercial need (like exposure, etc) or personal need (like the need for recognintion, kill boredom, etc) - but this forum is not a community property, as far as I see it. At any point its owner might fold his tent and say 'tada'. Does not even need to be nice like Don to allow a sweet transition and data migration. And the community can do squat.

5) Finally, the moderators as a group can do what they wish, put themselves up for the vote or even resign... but again - this is personal decision, and not community issue. And not necessarily good for the community either. What if all moderators get voted down? Will it be an unmoderated forum? Or will new, maybe much worse moderators need to be found. Or will the present moderators just say "to hell with the vote, we're staying"... In which case - what's the point of the vote?

Just my 2c.

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

The poll results do not support your reasoning

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Main Entry: zing·er Pronunciation: \ˈziŋ-ər\
1 : something causing or meant to cause interest, surprise, or shock
2 : a pointed witty remark or retort

One thing need to be considered. Saying that "I will ignore person X" is the most serious insult what people may express on public forum! If someone feels ignoring, then ignore, but it is extremely vulgar to say that in public, because it is direct insult. This should lead at least notification and deletion of message (must preferably, by the person who is involved, voluntarily)

Other slight inaccuracy is that it is impossible to ignore moderators. If this is impossible, due to software issues, moderators should not use moderator accounts for discussing. Preferred would be that there are [admin]...[/admin] tags, that will bypass any ignores. If moderator need to say something administrative. Using too parallel accounts is however easy, if person uses e.g. IE tab extension or different web browsers with different accounts. That is why I think that separate moderator accounts would be preferred.

This does not require fix as long as there are no jerks as an admin who talk too much of nonsense. But it is in any case moral inaccuracy, because it in practice elevates moderators to higher social status than regular discussers.

Hmm, I think I broadly disagree with Bantari.

Considering that we moved here from Godiscussions.com as a community, and we are, at least piecemeal in contact without the forum, I would suggest that we are not particularly vulnerable to corrupt administration. Continuing along this line, I'd suggest its moderation style etc are more up to us as a community than any particular administrator.


So, I think that if anyone is suited to democratic decisions, we are.


On a side note, to suggest that the site owner (Jordus?) would treat us so casually would be to malign him. Also, if we were by majority anarchists, or an unsavoury group who wished indecent links plastered everywhere, kind of definitively...

My 2 bits anyway. Dissenting opinions are healthy for reaching good conclusions, right?


PS: Tangentially- our truck number is >1 now, right? That was part of the theme of moving over here?

PPS: Hm, I'm quite fine with the moderation. I do not get the impression that anyone's heart isn't in the right place, so I'm confident we'll work past disagreements smoothly.

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Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.

====== IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT ======

In celebration of the glory and prosperity that is abundant throughout the magnificent Forums of Life in Nineteen By Nineteen, I have been given, through the hands of the Party of Everlasting Freedom, the privilege of announcing a new system, that will safeguard our ever-present creative energy and spirit, and end once and for all the rampant practices of Trolls, Criminals, and other Undesirable Elements that have, untill now, so negligently been tolerated by the corrupted elite of moderators! We shall call it... the TRIAS POLITICA!

• On the First Level, there will be a democratically elected Council of Law, which decides upon the Forum Laws and Regulations. They will represent the ordinary denizens of the Forum, who have so far been suffering so heavily under its regrettable mismanagement. In celebration of this, truly anyone who is an approved member of the Party of Everlasting Freedom will be able to vote! Furthermore any and all members who have been pre-approved by the Commission of Candidacy can run in the 4-yearly elections for this prestigious board!
  
• On the Second Level, a select number of powerful individuals, so-called Moderators will ensure the orderly execution of all pre-approved Forum Laws and Regulations. None shall escape their attention!
  
• Finally, on the Third And Last Level, we will put our trust in the righteous hands of none less than the mighty Helel. As the Chair and Only Member of the Forum's High Court of Justice, he will thoroughly examine the cases of anyone whose behaviour is dubious. If any are found to have acted in Violation of the Democratically Instituted Forum Laws and Regulations, he himself will find the IRL identities of ALL that disobey. Through his hands, they shall suffer, until through the righteous torment of Justice, even the most rebellious of miscreants will Repent.

Thus shall the Party of Everlasting Freedom create a new state of everlasting well-being, in which there is no more misery, no more poverty, and most importantly - no more trolling! I trust that all of these measures will be rapidly put in place. They will improve the lives not of the arrogant present-day elite Moderators in their ivory towers, but of the common citizens like all of us, who are now toiling away day by day on our posts - and for what reward? Never more will there be needless moderation, or negligence where powerful action is needed!

Now join the Revolution! For Freedom! For Freedom! For Freedom!

Humbly, this insignificant servant of the Party thanks any and all who read all the way to the end of this piece of cr*p for their wasted attention. The precious minutes that you just spent in reading this post are now gone for ever and ever in the mists of time.

====== END OF ANNOUNCEMENT ======

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My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

When in doubt, play the most aggressive move

Does this mean that Helel will actually read the TOS?

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Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Now been six weeks

Yes, I'm curious what Mr. Fairbairn is up to lately, and I miss his posts.

John is rather busy on a number of book projects and decided to reduce the amount of time he was spending here. I agree it is rather a pity, but you will be gaining on the swings what you are losing on the roundabouts, because it means more goes into the GoGoD Database and Encyclopaedia and, specifically, into the books he is writing. One point should be made, though. He rarely does things from pique; he felt that his postings had been "moderated" rather drastically, complained somewhat, and then saw the poll and felt that if people were satisfied with the methods he disagreed with, and considering the further comments about his preference for British English, he could spend his time more profitably elsewhere. He may return when the pressures on his time are reduced; at my last meeting with him he was speculating whether he would be able to get as many as four books published next year, provided the publisher was willing. That is rather a hectic timetable and does not take in his free-lance work, family and baseball trips.

Best wishes.

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No aji, keshi, kifu or kikashi has been harmed in the compiling of this post.
http://www.gogod.co.uk

A message was passed to me this weekend, presumably as a result of the post above, that if I "felt inclined" to return to the forum the moderators would take action to ensure (as I understand it) that they fully respect the language and modes of expression of non-Americans like myself.

Although that in itself wasn't actually the sticking point, and I can't honestly say I am filled with any special inclination, it would seem ungracious not to respond. The real disappointment for me was that very many people supported the moderator's actions (according to a poll), and some even pitched in to call me a troll, to try some amateur psychoanalysis of me, or to try unsubtle jokes. I have no quibble with the right of readers to do all these things, and worse, but like everyone else I have no actual need to be here, and I can easily find other things to do than to be an Aunt Sally when it seems that **a very large proportion** of readers appear to want to try the coconut shy.

It has been suggested to me that I misread the poll. Maybe. I am planning later this evening to post a couple of things that I would have posted in the normal run of things. I'll see how that goes as regards continuing, but I also plan to be wary. Please don't read into that any wish by me to deny anyone else the urge to disagree with me or criticise me, or to expose my own prejudices and ignorance. But if I am to use a noticeable portion of my time, I do wish to feel that I am on the same wavelength as most of the other people in the room with me. I had had that feeling before, and it was learning that I was apparently wrong that irked me so much.

To the person above who asked for a book on shogi tesujis, I haven't done it in book form but I covered this topic at book length in SHOGI magazine, and I believe most issues are still available. Some people may not know that George Hodges, who established shogi in the west, passed away in August 2010. His wife Angela is continuing to sell off the still considerable stock. If anyone **genuinely** wants to buy shogi books, magazines or equipment (including all the shogi variants), send me a PM (I will temporarily turn on my forum mail link) and I will pass your message or address to Angie.

I was the mod referred to above, and, as promised, I just now changed the 'naughty words' file so that posters can use the word 'ass'. Welcome back, Mr. Fairbairn.

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Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

I have no idea what that means but I'm very glad to see you back

Ah, and I'm glad to hear Joaz has uninvited the donkeys, that was very strange. If a word is really worthy of being in the "naughty words" file (a futile endeavor in my mind, but whatever) it ought to be replaced with something that makes it clear what happened...

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That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

Fairbairn!

Best wishes.

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No aji, keshi, kifu or kikashi has been harmed in the compiling of this post.
http://www.gogod.co.uk

It may futile. I don't know.

It certainly was never intended to be a cure-all for abrasive posters. That is indeed futile, if not counterproductive ( I can recall the furor that arose when AOL censored the word 'breast' and inadvertently shut down the breast cancer survivors group. It was more disruptive than the porn that it was trying to prevent. )

Rather than a cure-all, the 'naughty words' file is intended to be one of a handful of tools that admins have to prevent disruption of the forums. Its primary virtue is that it is online 24/7, unlike the admins who cannot scan every post. It is intended to blunt the otherwise offensive words of the occasional poster who is acting rashly, and to slow the escalating fight that ensues as the offended parties counter-post.

It is sort of like the auto-stop mechanism on a runaway elevator, stupid but quick, and always on duty. It does its job, which presumably prevents things from getting worse really fast, and then leaves the more subtle corrective decisions - if any - to those with more intelligence and discretion.

I don't mind taking the stairs occasionally if it ensures that I never get splattered in the basement.

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Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Please be careful. This is starting again to make it sound like I want to use "naughty words". My many posts show that that is not my style. The whole point of my beef was that in British English ass is a "funny word" rather than a naughty one. We have our own naughty equivalent, which I never use, even in speech.

I got mixed messages as to whether ass is objectionable in American English. Since it appears to be so to some people, I intend to avoid it here in future.

In fact, I have no objection to the idea of a naughty words file in principle, but it's tough to make it work internationally.

The data is a bit scarce, but I thought it sounded quite a bit more like they were wandering into an abstract discussion of the merits of naughty word policies, not trying to comment on your use of funny words.

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Occupy Babel!

Yes, what hyperpape said.

Also, I don't really think "ass" is a very naughty word very many places anymore.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard that in British English "naughty" is a pretty serious charge. Here in the states "naughty" is sort of a joking way to phrase things, so "naughty word list" is sort of humorous way to say things.

And I certainly didn't mean to insinuate that I thought you (John) were violating some sort of decent language barrier or something, so hopefully it didn't sound that way...

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That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

Putting aside linguistic discussions, welcome back, John! While I may rarely add commentary to your posts, I do thoroughly enjoy the great substance of your posts.

A side note, your short sabbatical from the forum here prompted me to check out your book "Invitation to Go". I enjoyed the read, and my wife (who is not really very interested in Go) also read through it and found it enjoyable. I should look up to see if they have any others of your writings.