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 Post subject: Re: new low
Post #21 Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:45 am 
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As a foreigner, surely I must miss most reasons for BGA membership decline. Here are some nevertheless:

- British players again fear the channel and hardly enter international tournaments. Without heroes, more players might lack motivation.
- The quality of BGJ contents fell down dramatically. (I am not sure about the last two or three years though.)
- A perfect book supply with great literature at incredibly low prices was replaced by a "do not store new books" BGA policy.
- British economy is not in its most competitive state.


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Post #22 Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:16 am 
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I think a sea change in attitude might be needed to turn around membership figures. The current viewpoint is that it is perfectly acceptable to lose 200 members over 4 years because all organisations are losing members. This doesn't sit well with me. :) One thing I wonder about is, would it be better if membership was compulsory to play in a tournament? A sliding scale of membership could be introduced, you have to pay for rating, then for standard membership, then perhaps an even more advanced level?

It doesn't seem obvious to me that the ruleset used in tournaments would be responsible for the drop, certainly one could argue that (the drop does come at the time they were introduced with the claim that they would make understanding how to play the game easier), but my fixed view on this episode was that it was a pointless, demonstrably non-beneficial waste of time, originating from ..., well not originating from the best of motives if you ask me. French rules would probably be better for the visitors to the London open, but beyond that I can't see any genuine benefit.

There are signs that recruitment is starting to pick up a little, because the BGA was seeing substantial numbers of new players emerge for a while, but more needs to be acheived in this regard. I know people are trying here :)

The journal is not really a membership benefit anymore, since it becomes available online for free after a year. It's good to see a more frequent journal, with a proactive approach from certain senior figures with regards to its production. Speaking of online, I am pleased by the increase in online events.

Overall, I think the BGA needs more student clubs, more coordinated schools activity, and a review of its overall structure. Judging from the leadership, it seems clear to me that there are certain lynchpins in the organisation, but no obvious replacements for them.

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Post #23 Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:03 pm 
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well.. here's a 14 kyu commenting....

Oddly.. I was a member of the BGA in 1977 and still have the documents and membership card.

I visited a few clubs at the time and was graded by a guy called Fearnly in Oxford - looks like he's still around. I also note that after 30+ years my grade is still 14 kyu :(

At the time a number of things seemed to happen - a bit of profile in the press - there were even Go games available in some toy shops. For about a year Go was chic...

Like it or not.. Go is very "geeky". I bet most people on this board know what "public static void main" means... That combined with the learning curve from hell leads to a restricted market

I also note that Go clubs seem to have a place in Universities.

I have no particular agenda to further Go BUT we will be using Go as an induction activity for 200 odd first year students next year (they will be asked to learn Go before they come to Uni, then at the end of the first week we will hold a competition with a Goban as a prize). Dry runs with an altered DGS are encouraging and I already have a number of initiated and keen geeks.. (who I need to train in order to count)

Possibly a University online league (need to find champions) might be something that the BGA might get involved with... Injecting young blood might be fruitful..

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Post #24 Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:40 pm 
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Overall, I think the BGA needs more student clubs, more coordinated schools activity, and a review of its overall structure.


Superficially this seems unobjectionable (and I also agree that the AGA rules bit is a red herring), but it may be worth challenging it in the hope of deeper insights.

I have no convincing answers for go, but I observe that other organised leisure activities use different models. I mention two below. These may work in some way for go.

1. I have a friend who teaches taiji (t'ai-chi). It seems that the standard model for martial arts is that a teacher offers class tuition. He rents the room and charges students. He keeps any profit as a way of earning his living, and he may also make something from offering equipment or books for sale. Because this model is often seen as educational, it is apparently fairly common to get rooms for nothing or at a discount from local councils or education authorities, or even companies. In the case of taiji, at least, it is possible to point to side benefits (relaxation, improved health, etc) and this makes it fairly easy (at least when the economy is running smoothly) also to interest companies, schools and other organisations in running e.g. lunchtime introductory courses for a fee.

The teacher's class is not a club, but from the pupils' point of view it offers much the same benefits (there are weekend outings, even group trips to China, and attendance at tournaments). An extra benefit is that the teacher does all the organisational work.

The teacher does not have to belong to a higher organisation, but there is one. However, it is small and has very few functions. Again, limiting myself to what I know about the taiji case, these functions include optional certification, advice and discounts on insurance, and serving as a convenient contact point with China.

It seems to me this model could serve for budding go professionals or teachers, though perhaps only as a full-time job in major cities (I believe taiji supports several full-time teachers in London and a couple in Birmingham, our "second city").

I think the key here is stressing the side benefits of taiji, but that can better be discussed under the second model.

2. The second model is aimed mainly at parents and opinion formers (including the press). There are certain activities which are widely, even if sometimes falsely, seen as beneficial to children or people who want to improve themselves. Taiji is one example, but music lessons and several activities that crop up regularly in local adult education courses fit the bill. Even trivia such as sudoku are sold as brain improvers in the media.

Go can quite easily, although perhaps with tongue in cheek occasionally, be sold as useful in enhancing calculating ability, decision making, long-term planning, concentration, awareness of other cultures, and health (e.g. delaying mental degradation). If these sorts of pitches are made to parents, company training sections, people who run old people's homes, etc., a BGA-type organisation would be needed to attend to the resulting enquiries. We have one, and that's a good start, but the information we offer is currently of the wrong sort, so changes of attitude and structure would still be needed.

For this model to work, the focus of BGA activity would in fact need to change drastically, to parents and opinion formers and away from students and children (who may, nevertheless, be the main beneficiaries). It would, however, be the parents and so on who take the lead in organising, or at least demanding, local activities. They may choose not to do this in club form, but by hiring teachers.

Conclusions

Looking at these two possible models - there must be more and they can each be refined - I come to three conclusions as to what may be at fault under the present system.

1. The club model rather than the class model may be out of date now, or just not suitable any more.

2. Publicity about the game's activity is currently totally misguided (this is an old bee in my bonnet). Year after year I hear the old refrain that the BGA/AGA/whatever must contact the local press and offer them two things: (a) announcements about tournaments, and (b) a column devoted to tsume-go problems. Utter codswallop. I speak as a journalist. Two main things are wrong with this approach: no editor of any merit is going to be interested, and they are too local. What is needed are major articles that tell people in general, not just likely games nerds, what benefits are to be had from the game. Even the few articles that have made it to the national press so far mostly tend just to sell go as an interesting game for nerds. It should rather be sold as a game that expands your brain, that makes you live longer, that makes you a better manager, that staves off Alzheimer's, etc. Articles like that not only attract national papers (usually for the health pages or the like) but are syndicated, and because they are general and not news related, they can be recycled easily. (And as a minor plus, you get paid well for them, so it should be budding teachers who either write them or who brief journalists.)

3. This item derives from the last. If a valid market to aim at is indeed parents, opinion formers and the like, it is equally misguided to stress, as the BGA currently does, that go is a very easy game to learn. There have been repeated efforts by some BGA officials to eliminate any hint that go is "challenging" - the c-word in British go. But if you want to convince people that go is worth taking up and, more to the point, getting involved in, it has to be seen as a worthy challenge.

In fact, although the above is mainly brain-storming and does not necessarily represent my own views in every way, I am strongly tempted to believe that the recent slump in BGA membership may be connected with the dumbing down of go in this country.


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 Post subject: Re: new low
Post #25 Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:50 pm 
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Two thoughts (though my not being in the UK may make my attitude different):

First, the internet. I'd be willing to bet that more people play go in the UK than ever before, but fewer go to clubs. People have more and more things to do, and taking the time to go to a club - and join an organization - may just be the kind of thing they drop most easily. A quick game on KGS or IGS can satisfy the dopamine urge without having to travel, take the tube, or park, to play among a group of people who, in all but large cities, are the same every time.

Second, why join the BGA or any other national organization? For several years, I lived in Tours, France, where there was a small but very friendly club (thanks especially to one member who had a lovely house and welcomed us every week). The club was an official club, part of the FFG, but of all the years I went there, I only joined the FFG for one year; there was no reason to, except to play in tournaments. Since, at the time, I was a DDK, I didn't see tournaments as being interesting. (I did, one year, join the FFG and play one day in a tournament, but didn't have the mind set to play in such an environment.) If you don't want to play in tournaments, and can still go to the club, why pay to join an organization?

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Post #26 Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:31 pm 
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Javaness wrote:

It doesn't seem obvious to me that the ruleset used in tournaments would be responsible for the drop, certainly one could argue that (the drop does come at the time they were introduced with the claim that they would make understanding how to play the game easier), but my fixed view on this episode was that it was a pointless, demonstrably non-beneficial waste of time, originating from ..., well not originating from the best of motives if you ask me. French rules would probably be better for the visitors to the London open, but beyond that I can't see any genuine benefit.


I agree that the change of ruleset is not responsible for the loss of existing members, but I think that the presentation of the new rules (once you have succeeded in finding them) is offputting to someone just learning the game over what it could have been.

The new rules are at http://www.britgo.org/files/rulesofplay.pdf and the translated French rules can be found at http://www.rhodamine.eu/~sagc/GoRules/regles/regleGo_translated.html.

[I always mention that John Fairbairn kindly did the bulk of the translation and that they can also be found on the "New in Go" site - see the link at the very end of http://www.gogod.co.uk/NewInGo/FrenchRules/FrenchRules.htm]

My complaint concerning the BGA rules is the abundant presence of forward (and backward) references, the decision to include tournament rules rather than keep these separate, the absence of any diagrams and a generally stark monochrome "dog's dinner" layout.

The benefit of the adoption of AGA type rules to my mind is the avoidance of the sleight of hand that occurs when explaining the end of the game to a newcomer - something along the lines that "those stones are dead - so we take them off and put them in your territory" and if they play on to explore the situation, they lose even more.

My view then is that the British rules are an impediment to recruitment and uptake of the game - they will not destroy the BGA but they don't help.

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Post #27 Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:28 pm 
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As an onlooker from afar, what is the problem with declining membership? Is it causing fiscal problems for the BGA, or is it purely a matter of pride?

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Post #28 Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:06 pm 
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jts wrote:
As an onlooker from afar, what is the problem with declining membership? Is it causing fiscal problems for the BGA, or is it purely a matter of pride?


It is just one of many symptoms that makes one feel that Go in the UK is less healthy than elsewhere.

If for example our funds are low, then prizes at tournaments are reduced so the better players stay away - I think you can see the consequences of that.

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Post #29 Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:17 pm 
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I am curious that Suduku seems to have won a place in the press... yet Go problems haven't.

I have students who wandering into to labs doing a suduku problems.. never understood the fixation myself.

I would be curious to see if an article with a Go problem could be syndicated to say all local newspapers for free - with a link to ogs or kgs. If nothing else it might stir interest.

My Chinese colleague plays go with me avidly... the reason is that he can't find anyone (even Chinese) to play with him. The number one reason he claims is the time it takes for a game to play out .. in the UK we are not good at sitting down and playing games.. (unless something explodes in the game every five seconds)..

I suppose the final point made is valid.. is the BGA really needed? In the old days.. tournaments and ratings were facilitated by these bodies. Now, credible ratings are available on the internet and really, online play is so much easier..

I thought a few months back that a different approach to go tournaments might work..taking the same format as online poker events. i.e.. months are spent online qualifying for a major national event. As this would occur infrequently .. fees could be more effectively used.. and the event would be bigger... just a thought..

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Post #30 Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:33 pm 
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BobC wrote:
I suppose the final point made is valid.. is the BGA really needed? In the old days.. tournaments and ratings were facilitated by these bodies. Now, credible ratings are available on the internet and really, online play is so much easier..


A question that could be asked of all Western go organizations. If you are happy with the state of Western go then of course you don't need a national organization. Fire up the computer, get your go fix and you're fine.

On the other hand, if you want to see both the quantity and quality of Western go players improve, then that is more than a single person can manage. You need some kind of structure to pool talent and resources towards a greater goal.

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Post #31 Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:15 pm 
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It seems like many want to blame the ease and availability of internet play as the major cause of the decline in national organizations and local clubs. But I wonder if there's not another major dynamic at play.

I feel that personality conflicts and poor communication both among the leaders of the organization and to/from its membership at large may be an even larger contributor to the decline.

I often hear of people who quit or even refuse to help because something is not going their way, or they are otherwise dissatisfied with how things are going.

There will always be differences of opinions, but we've got to learn to work together in spite of those differences -- or maybe even because of those differences.

And if the current membership can't get along, it'll be a really hard sell to any potential new members.

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Post #32 Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:33 pm 
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BGA Rules and beginners: If taught 1:1 to beginners, they might find them a bit overloaded. If just their Area Scoring is taught as simple rules, then that is an ideal tool.

Online go: So much more easily accessed than going to a club. However, real boards and tournaments are the real fun. An association must convey that joy of good playing material and better reading at it. Tournaments should also create a great social experience. We are not all internet refugees yet, aren't we? Clubs, tournaments and associations have their chance! It requires a lively scene of active players though.


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Post #33 Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:12 pm 
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Peter Wendes is the only person who I can think of currently extolling the benefits of Go's educational nature to the general public. He's generated a lot of awareness of the game by doing this, but no spark has yet lit the flame. I am not sure if he points out that it is challenging, or if he points out that it is easy. Go is both of these, which makes it quite special. :)

I remember Paul Smith put together a presentation that showed that the public perceived Go as being very complicated, which put people off learning the game. This would probably explain the approach taken by the BGA, but if you want to recruit people who can be expected to comprise the talent of the next generation, it seems necessary to state the depths. Otherwise you present it as some tin of beans by Andy Warhol

John Fairbairn wrote:
Go can quite easily, although perhaps with tongue in cheek occasionally, be sold as useful in enhancing calculating ability, decision making, long-term planning, concentration, awareness of other cultures, and health (e.g. delaying mental degradation). If these sorts of pitches are made to parents, company training sections, people who run old people's homes, etc., a BGA-type organisation would be needed to attend to the resulting enquiries. We have one, and that's a good start, but the information we offer is currently of the wrong sort, so changes of attitude and structure would still be needed.

For this model to work, the focus of BGA activity would in fact need to change drastically, to parents and opinion formers and away from students and children (who may, nevertheless, be the main beneficiaries). It would, however, be the parents and so on who take the lead in organising, or at least demanding, local activities. They may choose not to do this in club form, but by hiring teachers.

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Post #34 Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:17 pm 
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That sounds like a BGA dream, forcing students to learn to play Go before they can come to university :) I

I think Go clubs are the most important part of the BGA, if membership were taken from them, and not nationally, I think that membership would increase.

BobC wrote:
I also note that Go clubs seem to have a place in Universities.

I have no particular agenda to further Go BUT we will be using Go as an induction activity for 200 odd first year students next year (they will be asked to learn Go before they come to Uni, then at the end of the first week we will hold a competition with a Goban as a prize). Dry runs with an altered DGS are encouraging and I already have a number of initiated and keen geeks.. (who I need to train in order to count)

Possibly a University online league (need to find champions) might be something that the BGA might get involved with... Injecting young blood might be fruitful..


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Post #35 Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:03 pm 
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Tournament Entrants 20100101-20110115 by country:-

This is approximate information because of the way players are dropped from the rating list after 6 months, 12 months or 2 years if they have not played in a tournament in that time.

DE 1099 Germany
FR 952 France
RU 689 Russian Federation
RO 421 Romania
UK 337 UK
NL 337 Netherlands
TR 228 Turkey
PL 226 Poland
FI 218 Finland
CZ 213 Czech Republic
ES 174 Spain
UA 189 Ukraine
IT 178 Italy
SE 128 Sweden
CH 114 Switzerland
HU 092 Hungary
AT 084 Austria
BE 076 Belgium
SK 058 Slovakia
LT 053 Lithuania
SI 049 Slovenia
RS 048 Serbia
IL 039 Israel
HR 043 Croatia
DK 034 Denmark
IE 034 Ireland
NO 030 Norway
BA 016 Bosnia
CY 014 Cyprus
BG 013 Bulgaria
PT 012 Portugal
EE 009 Estonia
GR 005 Greece
LU 004 Luxembourg
BY 003 Belarus
AZ 002 Azerbaijan
AM 001 Armenia
LV 001 Latvia

Found by grep [A-Z]10 AllEuro.txt |grep UK|wc
grep [A-Z]11 AllEuro.txt |grep UK|wc
Then summing

If the Netherlands really has c. 800 members then they are doing proportionately better than the UK at 487 for 2010.

The big surprise to me is Turkey

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Post #36 Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:01 am 
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Quote:
I remember Paul Smith put together a presentation that showed that the public perceived Go as being very complicated, which put people off learning the game.


This was his ICOB paper. But as I understood it, it was his take on a survey of existing games players. What the respondents were saying is that go was too hard for them to devote their already spoken-for time to it. I had first-hand experience of George Hodges trying to get chess players take up shogi. The typical view was well put by one grandmaster: I already devote my life to one form of chess - why should I take up another that will require the same devotion?

The people the BGA should hope to get are people who don't yet have a hobby or who are between hobbies. Peter Wendes does a brilliant job of fomenting interest among young people. Again as I understand it, he doesn't stress the challenging side of go, at least with children. I think he stresses more things like increasing awareness of other cultures. That all seems entirely appropriate at that age level.

I have wondered whether the apparent lack of take-up from Peter and Shiela's efforts is simply hidden (children keep on playing in school but don't interact with the outside world) and/or whether what is available in the outside world just doesn't fit what the children expect. Going from Hikaru no Go to a bunch of grumpy old men in the BGA may be a step too far. I remember as a child chess player there were books written by people like Fred Reinfeld that catered specially for young people who knew the rules and basics such as "control the centre" but wanted to take the next step. I can't remember precise details, but I do recall being thrilled at being introduced to things like The Immortal Game, The Evergreen Game, and so on. Go seems to lack this sort of in-between book in English.

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Post #37 Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:10 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Going from Hikaru no Go to a bunch of grumpy old men in the BGA may be a step too far.


LOL.

Quote:
I remember as a child chess player there were books written by people like Fred Reinfeld that catered specially for young people who knew the rules and basics such as "control the centre" but wanted to take the next step. I can't remember precise details, but I do recall being thrilled at being introduced to things like The Immortal Game, The Evergreen Game, and so on. Go seems to lack this sort of in-between book in English.


Bobby Fischer teaches chess was the one that got me interested. It was a small-sized, mass-market paperback which you read one way, with problems and answers, then turned the book around and started from the back. (I actually still have a copy.) It didn't get me interested enough in chess to go any further than the occasional game, but I know it did have that effect on a lot of young people at the time. (I was around ten or so.)

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Post #38 Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:23 am 
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I don't buy it that only specific groups of people might become interested in Go. Rather different groups have shown to develop interest:

- chess / shogi / xianqi players
- gamers in general
- maths type students
- East Asian culture interested people
- people fascinated by the deep strategic complexity
- people initially deceived by "easy to learn" and later learning to love the strategic richness
etc.

Therefore always any targeted group must receive specific PR. How to approach the general public? Throw carrots of all types! :)

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Post #39 Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:25 am 
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I wonder if there's been any concerted efforts to get in touch with the growing board game communities in different countries. The board games they play are different, but some of those people may find go interesting.

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Post #40 Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:59 am 
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kirkmc wrote:
I wonder if there's been any concerted efforts to get in touch with the growing board game communities in different countries. The board games they play are different, but some of those people may find go interesting.

I try to visit most relevant conventions held in Sweden with a board to teach/demonstrate Go and a small batch of books and equipment for sale.

/Mats

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