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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #61 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:04 pm 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm25
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm in crazy experiment mode. This doesn't actually work, but I want sente, and I've decided to try something. Besides, this feels yucky:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm25
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White's strongest resistance is as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm25
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 1 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'll throw out my preparation if we get that far :)

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Post #62 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:38 pm 
Honinbo
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Chew Terr: First, I think it's wonderful we have this kind of forum (formerly GoDiscussions.com)
and this format where people abide by a honor code so we can freely share ideas and thoughts in hidden tags.
And of course I have to thank Topazg to add yet another Malkovich game onto his busy schedule.
Now, to the game itself :study: --
This is my first Malkovich game, and it's been very interesting.
Before this, I knew very little about the double approaches:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
So the upper left corner gave me a chance to study this a little bit (Post #44, etc.)

Afterwards, the direction of :w20:,(a) or (b), was difficult (Post #49),
and it was another good chance to study some Magic Sword variations for some guidance.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
As W, since B goes first, I always feel a little behind.
I'm always concerned about the correct directions, weaknesses on both sides,
efficiency of stones, good and bad shapes, good and bad aji,
not seeing important tesujis, and maintaining overall balance (especially as W) -- all the usual suspects.
Generally, my goal on every move is try not to play something I'll regret later.
Specifically, for now, I keep an eye on (c), and try to get sente to play :wc: first.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O c . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
It's still a little early; I don't know how to judge the current situation.
In particular, I don't know if :w20: was the correct direction;
that's something to find out post-game. :-?

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Post #63 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:01 pm 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm26
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #64 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:37 pm 
Judan
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For observers:
unkx80 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I would be inclined to play :b1: here, and treat the marked black stone lightly.


I agree completely. I was thinking that it might be best to treat it lightly even before the two circled white stones were played.

How close does a stone have to be to a wall before both players will decide that it is compromised and therefore not worth their time?

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #65 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:19 pm 
Lives in sente
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
For observers:
unkx80 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I would be inclined to play :b1: here, and treat the marked black stone lightly.


I agree completely. I was thinking that it might be best to treat it lightly even before the two circled white stones were played.

How close does a stone have to be to a wall before both players will decide that it is compromised and therefore not worth their time?

Obs.
This, I think, depends on the tactical situation (meaning the specific wall and perhaps global stuff). If the wall can slide under the stone's extension, depriving it of a base, that's too close, or if there's some other nastiness that the wall can do to the stone. OTOH if the wall is lacking eyeshape maybe such a stone wouldn't be too close.

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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #66 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:49 pm 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm26
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can save those two stones later if needs be, what I need is the ability to jump out smartly.

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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #67 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:57 pm 
Tengen
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For what it is worth, the block was aiming at something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm26
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X X 7 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . 2 . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now Black has made reasonably strong shape with good eye potential, easy access to the middle, and conceded around 15 points - for 12 of the 16 stones White has played, I'm happy with this (and 2 walls of thickness facing each other this closely is generally overconcentrated).

As a result, I suspect White won't play to push and cut, but it does mean I get to connect to my stones in semi sente, so that's fine too.

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Post #68 Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:39 am 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Connecting at :w1: or (a) seems slow and gote --
the two :bc: stones are not small, but I think B is happy to trade them for :b2: and :b4:,
after which B exudes power from the center all the way to the entire right side:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O B B . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O 3 . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . X . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 2 3 . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So it seems the small knight's :w1: or the large knight's :w28:
is a big shared point for B and W; I probably should take it first.
(p)
Instead of :b25:, if :b1:.. :b5:, then, for example, W either gives up the 2 W stones (W(a)), or B can destroy W's eyeshape in sente (W(b));
B also has the option of (c) for better eyeshape:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w4: tenuki
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . .
$$ | . X X X . X . O
$$ | . . O O O O . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . 5 a . . . . .
$$ | . b . X . O . .
$$ | . . O 1 . . . .
$$ | . . 2 3 . . . .
$$ | . . c X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .[/go]
In my second variation, if :w1: keima, B can jump to :b2: to fight,
so the large keima :w28: was better:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . .
$$ | . X X X . X . O
$$ | . . O O O O . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . O . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . 1 .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . 2 .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . .[/go]


Last edited by EdLee on Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #69 Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:17 am 
Tengen
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Well, that was a very silly move order mistake. Ed's too smart to just push and cut there. If I get sente for connecting them, I will, but right now, I need to jump out. I should have played something like this I think:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm27
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Will try to handle this group smartly.

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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #70 Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:28 am 
Tengen
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KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
for obs only:
if he want to jump below is correct.
what he suggested is too thin and will pay for that weakness later.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm27
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B C . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #71 Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:29 am 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #72 Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:04 am 
Judan
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EdLee wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
...


I really like this move.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

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Post #73 Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:07 am 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
EdLee wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
...


I really like this move.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


Me too, it's rather good :-?

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Post #74 Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:45 am 
Judan
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topazg wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think Topazg is hurting himself with this move. The best way to counter EdLee's latest move would be to isolate it, not to make it stronger.

I expect that EdLee will play the proverbial hane like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now Topazg almost has to crosscut with 4, lest EdLee take 4 for himself.

White 5 is a no-brainer, then 6 is a problem for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Give white the monster ponnuki in the center?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 3 2 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 4 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc A splitting attack, with both groups running south toward white's strength?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 3 2 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 8 4 1 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


No matter how it plays out, black will have succeeded in forcing white to become strong in the center. Not only does this bode ill for black on the left side, but eventually the cut at G16 will bcome pointless.

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Post #75 Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:21 pm 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Forced, otherwise the broken shape is out of the question:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :w1: tenuki
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . O . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . 2 X . .
$$ | . . . X . . O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Locally, a hane/cross-cut/clamp is expected as B tries to use a contact fight to neutralize W:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Follow-up: cross-cut (a) or clamp (b)
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . O . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . 1 X . .
$$ | . . . X . a O . .
$$ | . . . . . . b . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Variation
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . O 3 . .
$$ | . . O . . 1 2 . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

For :b23:, maybe something like :b1: instead of (c) was possible:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . . .
$$ | . X X X . X . O .
$$ | . . O O O O . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . c . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]
And for :b27:, perhaps a jump directly instead of (d):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . . .
$$ | . X X X . X . O .
$$ | . . O O O O . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . O . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . d . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

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Post #76 Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:55 pm 
Lives in gote
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Guys, why don't you put coordinates on your board - wouldn't that help with the discussion?

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Post #77 Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:56 pm 
Honinbo
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@Joaz Banbeck, topazg: Thanks...
...but I am much less certain. :-|
I got lucky B did not try to jump out earlier, so W is on the outside for now.
I vaguely recall a scene from Hikaru no Go where Sai advises Hikaru to study the large knight's;
I feel I'm about to learn some things here about it, too. :mrgreen:

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Post #78 Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:04 pm 
Honinbo
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@SpongeBob:
SpongeBob wrote:
Guys, why don't you put coordinates on your board - wouldn't that help with the discussion?
It's just my preference. topazg and others are free to use coordinates.
I like to keep the board clean from clutter, and I prefer to use markers like :bc:, :ws:, (a), (b), etc.
so people don't have to read something like "J11" in the text, then scan the horizontal letters,
then scan the vertical axis to locate it on the board, as opposed to seeing :wx: immediately.
When I use the review tool on KGS, I always assume everyone else has disabled coordinates (ctrl+L) on their own computers,
so I use markers exclusively. (Of course, in kibitz, the audience cannot put markers on the board, unless it's a clone,
so in that case we must use coordinates to discuss the game.)
Here, in comments, anyone is welcome to use coordinates. :)


This post by EdLee was liked by: hman
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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #79 Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:14 pm 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Something's just come up, so my time and energy for this game, and my others, will be really limited. I wondered about resigning or postponing, but if I do the former I feel like I've let people down, it's not like I didn't know this was coming up, and if I do the latter I may never get around to wanting to continue. As a result, I'm going to simply post some general thoughts and rejected moves, and will welcome any questions people want to throw my way. My response time may be slower as well, but maybe that's a good thing.

My last move was stupid, completely rubbish. I'm really annoyed with myself for the thoughtlessness of the previous move, and when I get annoyed with myself, I play on tilt. That last move did absolutely nothing, and my group is an epic mess. When I played the iron post, it was under the basis of it being sente, which it kind of is if he'd pushed, I'd blocked, and he'd cut. Here, of course it wasn't, so playing it just in case is really dishonest, as it's expecting him to do something rather sub-optimal, and Ed is being way too careful for that. Ok, it wasn't dishonest, it was careless, but that's not better, and my followup was reckless.

However, for what it is worth, Ed has played some really beautiful moves. 26 Was delicately patient, and 28 was a fantastic move. I actually thought both 18 and 20 were a bit strange, but he's managed to turn them both into incredibly efficient stones, and that's not just due to my rash moves, but also some very fine judgement.

So, time to suck up some humble pie, fix, live, accept a 20 point or so loss and gote from this sequence, and try to find a way back. I actually feel that the opening fuseki up until my hash of the left side was quite good for Black, so if I can get the momentum back once I've settled this group, I may be able to keep the game close enough to even, and then can start playing to win again. Until then, I respect Ed's attack and cut my losses.

Rejected moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O f . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . g . X . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . e d . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . h . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by topazg was liked by 2 people: deja, illluck
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Post #80 Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:42 am 
Honinbo
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Posts: 8859
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm32
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Many variations here, which is probably to B's liking. :-|
The basic idea is if I simply connect with :w1:, B can treat :bc: lightly:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . O . . .
$$ | . . O . . 1 . . .
$$ | . . . X . O B 3 .
$$ | . . . X . X O . .
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
But if B runs with :b2:, B becomes a bit heavier:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . O . . .
$$ | . . O . . 3 2 . .
$$ | . . . X . O X 1 .
$$ | . . . X . X O . .
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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