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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Post #101 Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:15 pm 
Gosei
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One of the pieces of advice for improving and playing well is to count often. Specifically, it's recommended to count fully at least three times during the game, starting at turn 30ish. I'm trying to work on my counting (I'm terrible at it), so here goes:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Move 27
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | b b b . . . w w w w w w w . . . . . . |
$$ | b b b 0 . . w w w w w w w . . . . . . |
$$ | b b b . . O w w w O w . . O . . . . b |
$$ | b b b X . . . w w , . . . . . X b b b |
$$ | b b b . X O . w . . . . . . . . . b b |
$$ | b b X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X b b |
$$ | b b C C X O . . . . . . . . . . . b b |
$$ | b b C X X . . . . . . . . . . . . b b |
$$ | b b b X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | b b X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | b b b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | b b b . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . b |
$$ | b b b . . X . . . . . . . . . . . b b |
$$ | b b b X . . . . . . . . . . . . . b b |
$$ | b b b . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | b . . X . . w . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O w w w O . . w w w . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . w w w w w w w w w w w w w |
$$ | . . . . . . w w w w w w w w w w w w w |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]


Black:
Left:48
Right: 12+5=17
Total: 65
White:
Bottom: 33
Top: 21
Sente: 10?
Total: 64
Of course, this doesn't give a lot of points that could easily happen. I'm being conservative on what I call territory. For example, if I got amazing shoulder hits and leaning, maybe I could keep most of the top to third line territory, but he could jump into and wreck my corner easily enough. Considering the fact that it's white's sente, let's give him an additional 10ish points to account for that extra move. Overall, the game is playable for both sideds. I might be a LITTLE ahead, as my groups feel quite stable and, if he jumps into my corner, I'll get something for it, in most cases. I have less framework potential, but my points seem more solid (I have options like L16, L4, N3, G4, and so on, that all actually carry a bit of threat). So I don't feel like I can count accurately, but the game seems OK so far. Not sure how much of my handicap I've lost, but I don't think I'm actually losing, yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Post #102 Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:56 pm 
Oza
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@joaz -
Thanks for the explanation, that was helpful. I realize now that part of what confused me was bad accounting; even if a wall on the 6th line is almost 3pts per stone, you're still giving up an extra 2pts per stone to your opponent, relative to a 4th line wall. That only matters if he had no claim to side territory before you built your wall, of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Post #103 Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:12 pm 
Judan
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jts wrote:
@joaz -
Thanks for the explanation, that was helpful. I realize now that part of what confused me was bad accounting; even if a wall on the 6th line is almost 3pts per stone, you're still giving up an extra 2pts per stone to your opponent, relative to a 4th line wall. That only matters if he had no claim to side territory before you built your wall, of course.

Yes, the eastern value of my wall is worth the about same, 4th or 6th, no matter what happens on the back side of it. The absolute value of my wall is the eastern value minus whatever improvement he gets in the west. His improvement is the value of his current position in the west minus the value of his pre-wall position in the west.


Ultimately, was the attachment and building the wall a good idea? I'm beginning to think not. His position on the left looks rather strong if he plays the upper left a bit more agressively. It felt like he still would have had the better part of his two stone lead after 30 moves.
I think that I made a mistake someplace back there...maybe F5 should have been at F6?

Anyway, I have sente, and he has weaknesses in the upper left. I think that makes it about an even game right now.

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Post #104 Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:48 pm 
Honinbo
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Kirby,
As hyperpape also pointed out, W gains one lib from the exchange;
otherwise B can kill it with one move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . X X O O . . .
$$ | . 1 O O X . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . .[/go]
With the exchange, W can already live right away
(but W would not do it now, as the trade is good for B):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . .
$$ | . . 4 X . . . . .
$$ | . 2 . . X . . . .
$$ | . 1 X X O O . . .
$$ | . 3 O O X . . . .
$$ | 9 . O X . . . . .
$$ | . 7 . X . . . . .
$$ | . 5 X , . . . . .
$$ | . 6 8 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
If B resists (1 reason W wanted to save the :w2: :b3: exchange earlier):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 8 . . O . . .
$$ | . 7 6 X . . . . .
$$ | . X 4 5 X . . . .
$$ | . O X X O O . . .
$$ | . O O O X 2 . . .
$$ | . . O X 3 . . . .
$$ | . 1 . X . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
So W can turn at :w3: in sente (B can reply with :b4:);
otherwise, W can live as above, the corner aji is not good for B,
and W gains many outside sente moves (e.g. (a)...(e))
which can be very useful in the future:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X 3 . . .
$$ | . . X X O O . . .
$$ | . . O O X a c . .
$$ | . . 1 X b d . . .
$$ | . . . 2 . e . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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Post #105 Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:31 pm 
Honinbo

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EdLee wrote:
Kirby,
As hyperpape also pointed out, W gains one lib from the exchange;
otherwise B can kill it with one move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . X X O O . . .
$$ | . 1 O O X . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . .[/go]
With the exchange, W can already live right away
(but W would not do it now, as the trade is good for B):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . .
$$ | . . 4 X . . . . .
$$ | . 2 . . X . . . .
$$ | . 1 X X O O . . .
$$ | . 3 O O X . . . .
$$ | 9 . O X . . . . .
$$ | . 7 . X . . . . .
$$ | . 5 X , . . . . .
$$ | . 6 8 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
If B resists (1 reason W wanted to save the :w2: :b3: exchange earlier):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 8 . . O . . .
$$ | . 7 6 X . . . . .
$$ | . X 4 5 X . . . .
$$ | . O X X O O . . .
$$ | . O O O X 2 . . .
$$ | . . O X 3 . . . .
$$ | . 1 . X . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
So W can turn at :w3: in sente (B can reply with :b4:);
otherwise, W can live as above, the corner aji is not good for B,
and W gains many outside sente moves (e.g. (a)...(e))
which can be very useful in the future:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X 3 . . .
$$ | . . X X O O . . .
$$ | . . O O X a c . .
$$ | . . 1 X b d . . .
$$ | . . . 2 . e . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]



Does this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . .
$$ | . . 4 X . . . . .
$$ | . 2 . . X . . . .
$$ | . 1 X X O O . . .
$$ | . 3 O O X . . . .
$$ | 9 . O X . . . . .
$$ | . 7 . X . . . . .
$$ | . 5 X , . . . . .
$$ | . 6 8 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


really work after the exchange Joaz proposed?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 7 . . O . . .
$$ | . 4 8 X . . . . .
$$ | 0 3 2 . X . . . .
$$ | . 1 X X O O . . .
$$ | 9 . O O X W . . .
$$ | . . O X B . . . .
$$ | . 5 . X . . . . .
$$ | . 6 X , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


or maybe:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 9 5 . . O . . .
$$ | . 4 6 X . . . . .
$$ | 0 3 2 . X . . . .
$$ | . 1 X X O O . . .
$$ | . 7 O O X W . . .
$$ | . . O X B . . . .
$$ | . 8 . X . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Actually, I didn't consider white living inside - so if he can, I might see the benefit of the exchange. If he can't, though, it seems better not to do it (to me).

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Post #106 Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:08 pm 
Honinbo
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Kirby,
As mentioned earlier, one idea is W should not prematurely do the :w1: :b2: exchange:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Variation 1
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . X X O O . . .
$$ | . . O O X 1 . . .
$$ | . . O X 2 . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
For example, if there's a big ko later, W can get many threats here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . X X O O . . .
$$ | . . O O X . . . .
$$ | . . O X 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
B also does not want :b2: now:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X 3 . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 X 1 . . .
$$ | . . X X O O . . .
$$ | . . O O X 2 5 . .
$$ | . . O X . . 6 7 .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
If B makes the empty triangle with :b2:, W can just take 3-3 with :w3: -- W can be flexible:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . X . . . .
$$ | . 1 X X O O . . .
$$ | . . O O X . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
So the important idea is :w1: in Variation 1 is not urgent for either B or W,
so W should save it.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Post #107 Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:25 pm 
Gosei
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But :w1: does seem important for white's top. Hard to have your cake and eat it.

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Post #108 Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:50 pm 
Honinbo
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Kirby,
Another variation for the :b2: turn, the ladder is good for W,
so (a) and (b) are miai for W -- again, thanks to W saving the atari at :b6:,
the :b4: inside hane does not work:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . X . . .
$$ | . 1 X X O O . .
$$ | . . O O X 6 a .
$$ | . . W X 5 . . .
$$ | . 4 b B 7 . . .
$$ | . 3 X , . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
The :wc: :bc: exchange is like the proverb "sacrifice two," similar to this sequence,
W extending once with :w7: for the atari :w9::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b6: tenuki
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 3 . . . .
$$ | . . . X . O . .
$$ | . 8 4 0 . . . .
$$ | . 7 O X 9 . . .
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
If W does not make the :wc: :bc: exchange now, later if B has the chance,
B can fix the aji here with :b1:; then, as mentioned before, if W turns (c), B will not make
the empty triangle (e) but block at (d):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . X X O O . .
$$ | . . O O X . . .
$$ | . . c X 1 . . .
$$ | . . d e . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
So the :wc: :bc: exchange is good for W and W wants to do it now.
Loons,
The top :w1: turn is good, but the W(f) atari is aji keshi (see above and previous variations), so W should save it:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . X 1 . .
$$ | . . X X O O . .
$$ | . . O O X f . .
$$ | . . O X . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]


This post by EdLee was liked by 2 people: Dusk Eagle, topazg
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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Post #109 Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:30 am 
Honinbo

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EdLee wrote:
Kirby,
As mentioned earlier, one idea is W should not prematurely do the :w1: :b2: exchange:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Variation 1
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . X X O O . . .
$$ | . . O O X 1 . . .
$$ | . . W X 2 . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
...


The variations that do not include the :w1: :b2: exchange are different than what Joaz described, since he included the :w1: :b2: exchange in his explanation. So I think the point remains that, if he wants to play the :w1: :b2: exchange, there wasn't value added in playing the marked white move.

If the :w1: :b2: exchange were not in the plan of play, then perhaps there is merit to playing the marked white stone. But with the plan that was described in the original move, it seems to make more sense to me to simply start off with the atari instead of playing inside first.

With the game as it has progressed now, I would prefer not to have made the exchange, as the exchange has done more for black than it has for white. In other words, I would prefer this board position for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Move 27
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]


However, I will agree that, if the exchange had not taken place, bending inside might be a feasible choice.

But my original comment on this position stated my disagreement with Joaz's choice under the conditions that he made the exchange that he did in the game (I said, "If he wants a diagram like this...").

The only provided diagram that is relevant to this scenario seems to be this one:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . X . . . .
$$ | . 1 X X O O . . .
$$ | . . O O X . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


But it seems to me that white could just as easily do this without the exchange:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . X X O O . . .
$$ | . . O O X . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


So I guess I would say that playing the exchange might be a feasible possibility, but it is not a good choice if you are planning on playing the atari:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . X X O O . . .
$$ | . . O O X 1 . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


This is the basis of the complaint I had originally - if Joaz planned to play this way, why make the exchange?

If white could live after this exchange, then I could see the merit of having this plan for Joaz. But as it stands, now that the atari has been played, the three stones seem pretty useless, and black has been given the opportunity to wall off territory through the exchange.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Post #110 Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:20 am 
Honinbo

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I suppose that another consideration is whether or not the following diagram is one that black would respond to:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Move 27
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]


If the exchange in question leads to a different choice of whether or not black will tenuki - that is, if the exchange determines a sente situation for white - it might be another reason to play it.

I'm not totally sure if this is the case ATM, but this is something that I didn't consider before.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Post #111 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:25 am 
Judan
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Having found myself with unexpected sente, I'm scrambling to make the best use of it. ( I had resigned myself to having gote coming out of the upper left )
I'm finding that there are a handful of decent candidates, and all of them are difficult to evaluate. )


So I may need some more time to think. On top of that, today is my wife's birthday, so it won't do to analyze go all day. I hope to post a move by Thursday.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Post #112 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:28 am 
Gosei
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No problem, got a ton to do, anyways. Hope your reading doesn't dig up anything TOO drastic. =)

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Post #113 Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:25 am 
Judan
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Move 31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Move 31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]


To observers:
I need to increase my ko threats...more later.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Post #114 Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:55 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Move 31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]

Decided to go with this response instead. It's a slight concession, points-wise, but I feel it better handles aji around the 3-3. Joaz, would you still like the same 33? If so...
Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Move 31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]

If you want to capture:
Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Move 31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]


Viewers:
Still feeling okay. Not certain what I feel about the top left, as I gave more wall than expected, and it was gote. However, my territory on the left averages 4th-line, and is quite impressive, if I seal off the bottom left. As long as I can keep my right side from coming under too dire of attack and can reduce the top and/or bottom sufficiently, the game looks okay. As I said, I don't like giving nasty peeps like the C17 invasion, so I wanted to settle some aji. In my first trigger, I jump out to keep an eye on that group as well as keeping center access for reduction, hopefully. I will have to beware both right-side groups, but that seems the smart way to play. If he's not careful, my right groups will live after being forced into the middle enough to reduce his framework potential.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Post #115 Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:02 pm 
Judan
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I accept the second trigger.

It burns some aji, but it means that E17 is not sente for him.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Move 35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]

I expected the simple block for 32, and I was going to write a whole long piece about the ko fight that I think I could have forced. But it looks like he saw it. ( I remember when my honorable opponent joined GD an a DDK. He's come a long way since then. )

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Post #116 Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:05 pm 
Gosei
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KGS: Chew
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Move 31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]

Same reasoning as in trigger #1.

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Post #117 Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:15 pm 
Judan
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To observers:
I expected this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Move 31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]

The possible juncture between growing moyos seemed natural.

I must think some more.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Post #118 Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:48 pm 
Judan
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Posts: 5546
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Kaya handle: Test
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Move 31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]

If he doesn't want it, I'll take it myself, for the same reasons that he should want it. If he decides to trade the corner for the side, they are about equal, but I can reduce his side from above, whereas my corner is a done deal.
Regardless, the invasion around M3 just became harder for black.

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Post #119 Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:58 pm 
Tengen
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for obs only:
IMO :b36: is correct and :w37: is wrong.
white is already losing by enough margin so can not affort to let one stone on the side die with no reason.
and if he try to save it, his top and bottom will suffer.

i can not say what the correct respose is but i know they appears to be wrong.
maybe marked point???
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Move 31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . C . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr
Post #120 Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:07 pm 
Gosei
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Posts: 2060
Location: Texas
Liked others: 546
Was liked: 173
Rank: KGS 3k
GD Posts: 264
KGS: Chew
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Move 31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]


Not too afraid of this move by my opponent. First, it makes me fix my shape, which is awfully neighborly of him. Additionally, it hurts R10. While I intend to reduce my opponent soon, if R10 dies in a natural and large way, I won't have to do very much. You'll notice that on my previous count, I gave myself very few points on the right side. If I capture R10, I'll suddenly have a lot more.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 I was expecting something more like this
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 8 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 7 9 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc As soon as I can...
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . 3 . . . 1 2 . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 4 , . 5 . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]
This is a very vague idea of what I'm plotting.

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].

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