The left-hand part of the Kanji, 糸, means thread.

The right-hand part of the Kanji, 及, means reach. It also expresses order, and, further, making contact.

The combination gives something like join threads in a set order, i.e. weave. This gave rise to the idea of relative position, and eventually rank, and grade.

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Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

One note of interest is the character is originally Chinese (and still is ).
(The Japanese term kanji, 漢字, literally means "Han (dynasty) characters", or "Chinese characters":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji )

As for the origins of this particular character 級 --
it may or may not be entirely "semantic".
It could be "phono-semantic," or "pictophonetic," or something else:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_character

For example, if it's partly "phonetic", then one side could've been chosen
not for its meaning, but for its sound.

So a little more research is needed to find out which is which.

Welcome to the forum, EeveeM.

The explanation is taken from

Kenneth G. Henshall, "A Guide To Remembering Japanese Characters", Charles E. Tuttle Publishing Company, 1988.

And it really says that the right-hand part of the Kanji acts phonetically (this is the sound "kyû"), but also gives part of the meaning.

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The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

Thanks for the reference, Cassandra,
but the original Chinese sound ("thousands(?)" of years ago) was not "kyuu"; that's Japanese and is much more recent.
(Nonetheless, that's a book about how to remember Japanese characters, so maybe it's more applicable. )

I'll join the patzy party of non-native speakers elaborating on the original meaning of Chinese and Japanese characters.

级 as it is written in simplified Chinese, pronounced "ji" with a rising tone, indeed means level or grade. Other than as an equivalent to kyu in a go context, it is commonly used to refer to a student's year in high school or levels of government bureaucracy, for example.

The radical (left part) originally refer to silk or generally weaving, and the right side is phonetic but has many meanings, but two basic ones include "reach" and "be as good as."

For Mandarin/Putonghua, yes; not for (most?) other dialects,
and (almost certainly) not when the character was first formed, eons ago.

Minor point:

I think that grade for kyu is not right for go usage. In school, first grade comes before second grade, which comes before third grade, etc. Class, however, fits the usage of kyu. First class is higher than second class, which is higher than third class, etc. Grade fits the usage of dan.

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— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Clearly, kyu is an extreme contraction of the Japanese "kare wa yowai desu", meaning "he is weak"

(And I am a weak kyu myself, so don't take it personally.)

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No, this is all entirely arbitrary. Calling schools years grades is not British usage (in my school we went up from 1st to 6th form), and the implication that dan is somehow higher than kyu is also arbitrary, and so is the ordering. Ultimately grades go back to ancient China, but there the civil service was split into 九品　or 九級 (with 9 as the highest), not dans. Dan = grade is not really a Chinese usage (there the usual meaning of duan is fragment or segment). It is a term from Japanese martial arts that has been copied by the Chinese go world. Traditionalists prefer 品, and so the Taiwanese like this, but they reverse the numbers.

We are actually just following Japanese practice, not a general Oriental approach. But that has been arbitrary, too. The Hoensha under Shuho abolished dans and replaced them with kyu grades. Restoring dans was a condition laid down by the Honinbos for giving Shuho the title. He caved in.

So, trying to fix precise reference points in this case is like trying to pin the tail on a moving donkey.

Those interested in the history of go grades are referred to my article on the GoGoD CD ("grades history" in the index), which was also published in Go World a long time ago.

I do not see a disagreement, here.



Gradus ad Parnassum. The second step is further along than the first step. The fact that British speak of forms, does not affect that aspect of grades.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

It may signify that to you, but not to us. We have businesses here that call themselves e.g. Grade 1 Hairdressers, meaning they think they are the best grade. When we hear Americans speak of being in the fourth grade, that is meaningless to most of us. We know it's something to do with school but that's as far as it goes. We get no direction from the numbers. We also don't say "get good grades" - we say "get good marks". Grade A is usually highest for us, but A is the first letter of the alphabet, so even there we have different associations.

In contrast, I think (but the very fact that I'm unsure makes my point) that we have music exams where beginners start with Grade 1. In other words, for us at least, it is all somewhat arbitrary, so using grade or class for dan or kyu is just a matter of custom or taste, not logic. I suspect that people here who know Latin might want to think of grade specifically as a step, but they are a tiny minority. (I'm one and I don't.)

Thank you Edlee ^^ It's nice to be here. I find all sorts of interesting things to learn about :3

so.. is kyu a japanese term or a chinese term (originally)? When I read, I tend to think it's both, but there's something that tells me there's a large difference.

Go back and re-read the last 15 posts or so.

Andrew Grant's book says Hoensha wasn't allowed to give dan grades. Is that inaccurate?

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I refer you to Zain Danso, page 202, for the Hoensha's own words on the topic. For the politics, I'd refer you to my book The Insha Game, except there seems to have been some delay by Slate & Shell in issuing it.

In brief, though, two main factors to bear in mind are that in the Meiji era the Honinbo family was on the wane and was being challenged by several new organisations, of which the Hoensha was only one (i.e. tradition was less of a force), and that, with the new democratisation of the time, the go world was on the verge, for the first time, of recognising amateurs properly. Part of Shuho's genius was to understand the latter point very well. Previously, the best an amateur could hope for normally was a 1-dan diploma on the pro scale. Below the tiny elite who could achieve that level (and afford the diploma) there was a huge gaggle (us) waiting to be graded. So, essentially, dans were abolished for amateurs, who became kyus on a scale with much more discrimination. I think (without checking) that Shuho may have got the idea for kyus to go with dans from the guy who founded judo just before the Hoensha began, Kano Jigoro.

But Shuho's accession as Honinbo (and the associated politics) and, more to the point, his death soon after, derailed some of the new ventures to some extent. Many others pros were anyway more comfortable with still selling diplomas to a tiny but rich audience.

Mind you, in essence Shuho prevailed. We still have kyus. If you are a kyu player on the start of your go journey, you can proudly call yourself one of Shuho's Babes.

My interpretation of the argument was that the claim that "grade" is better terminology for dan and "class" is better terminology for kyu was based on the numerical ordering of the terms (1 > 2 > 3 > ... > n) vs. (1 < 2 < 3 < ... < n), and this ordering is independent of the root meaning of the word.

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John explained further in his note. For instance:



Well, language is arbitrary. Besides, my original note was about go usage. So where is the disagreement? As far as I can tell, if disagreement there be, it is about British vs. American usage.

Now, one thing that both John and I knew, but did not say, was that one meaning of dan, in Japanese, is step. That accords with grade, which is derived from the Latin gradus, and retains the meaning of stage in a progression. Another thing that both of us knew, but did not say, was that early translators of go literature translated dan as grade. I do not think that their choice was arbitrary, but had to do with the meaning as step. I interpreted John's statement as referring to the general arbitrariness of language.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

You seem to presume that this is information that a lot of people don't know.

In any case, I'm not sure it's relevant considering the earlier rationale:



The quote above is a different argument than the one you are giving now. The quote suggests the ordering of grades and classes as a means to distinguish between usage, which is arbitrary.

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be immersed

Do you disagree?





Then you misunderstand me.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.