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 Post subject: Re: Proposed solution to the escapers problem...
Post #21 Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:18 pm 
Gosei
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Toge wrote:
Proposed & working solution.

I challenge anyone to come up with argument how this is unfair to anybody.


Fair or not is not the issue here.
I bet you that any chronic escaper will NEVER set it!

And since I think we are arguing here about such people who escape often and see it as a way of life, not about those disconnecting occasionally for external reasons - such solution as proposed here is absolutely useless. Sure, it can be implemented - but it will not change anything in most of the cases.

The point is - whatever solution you pick, it will ALWAYS be unfair to somebody... or, at least, this is how somebody will always feel - for a different somebody depending on solution. You satisfy groups A and B, you piss off group C... you make C and B happy, A will be angry... and so on. This is why I, ultimately, think that the only meaningful solution is the one which comes from within... and it has the one advantage over any server policy - IT IS CUSTOM-TAILORED TO YOU PERSONALLY! Always! And this is why I, personally, think that a moderately lenient solution is the best one. Unless the server and the rating suffers - escapers is a personal problem. YOU get angry - so YOU deal with that!

I feel the world moves in the more and more lack-of-responsibility areas. Like:
I suffer, so YOU have to do something about it.

On a larger scale - I see it with smoking, drinking, education, etc... at last in the US - and I think Europe moves the same way as it is.
Some solutions you can impose from above, but most are really personal. So - DEAL WITH IT!
Ok, I am good now... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed solution to the escapers problem...
Post #22 Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:25 pm 
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Bantari wrote:
I bet you that any chronic escaper will NEVER set it!
Well, you wouldn't want to play against a chronic escaper anyways...

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed solution to the escapers problem...
Post #23 Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Araban wrote:
Bantari wrote:
I bet you that any chronic escaper will NEVER set it!
Well, you wouldn't want to play against a chronic escaper anyways...

I don't believe chronic escapers exist

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed solution to the escapers problem...
Post #24 Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:35 pm 
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lovely wrote:
I don't really understand the general uproar over escapers.


1. It's always not clear when someone is escaping. It might be a connection problem or some other reason why the opponent suddenly disappears. I have to wait for him.

2. For some people, playing a serious game can be the highlight of the day. There might be issues like anxiety related to playing or the player might feel bad about losing so many games. Escaping the game is highly disrespectful as it takes away the feeling of success (see also #1).

3. Escaping messes up the ranking system, creating artificially high rank for the escaper and denying rank for the victim. Since the system of handling escapers is so overly lenient, this problem won't be automatically solved for a long time and likely needs admin time to solve the case. I can't say from admin's point of view, but I get the feeling escapers are among the most frequent complaints they receive.

4. Escaper marking is messed up. New players won't know if they are the ones being marked escaper when their opponent leaves the game. Also unfinished game in their game list can be used to discriminate against them.


lovely wrote:
I really like Tygem's system in the five minutes to reconnect policy. It works well and I've been able to continue playing games a few seconds after I disconnected without any problems.


- I think this is by far the best proposed solution.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed solution to the escapers problem...
Post #25 Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:58 pm 
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Toge wrote:
...

lovely wrote:
I really like Tygem's system in the five minutes to reconnect policy. It works well and I've been able to continue playing games a few seconds after I disconnected without any problems.


- I think this is by far the best proposed solution.


I like this system, too, but if we are proposing solutions, I'd add a "request resume" option that works like the "request undo" feature (but with resume as the request instead of undo... :-p).

That way, pretty much all of the benefits of the current system still exist (because now, if you mutually agree to postponing the game, you could both close the game and resume later).

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed solution to the escapers problem...
Post #26 Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:59 pm 
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xed_over wrote:
Araban wrote:
Bantari wrote:
I bet you that any chronic escaper will NEVER set it!
Well, you wouldn't want to play against a chronic escaper anyways...

I don't believe chronic escapers exist
Oh, they do...I was one. I have a stable Internet connection so I never did have to worry about disconnections and spending up the 10 pending escaped games before having future losses become auto-forfeit. So I would look at these 10 chances that KGS gives you as 'freebies', or lost games I did not want to consider losses. Basically, games where I was winning by a significant margin until I make a big blunder and frustratingly lose the game that way. So I would just escape those games. And because I would play on average 5 accounts at a time, this meant I had 50 freebies that I didn't mind using at the slightest. Usually, after a few days/weeks, I'd go back and resign some of them to 'clean' up my record and increase my freebie count, but I wouldn't do that for some of the more frustrating games. As a result, I never did have to use up all my freebies and forfeit games.

Before people get out their spears and torches, I'd like to throw out there this is something I did in the past. Eventually I started caring less about my wins/losses on KGS and caring more about other, more relevant things...like school, so I stopped with this practice.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed solution to the escapers problem...
Post #27 Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:10 pm 
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Bantari wrote:
The point is - whatever solution you pick, it will ALWAYS be unfair to somebody...


What do you think if solution is:

FAIR to players with good intentions to finish their games.
FAIR to players who have sometimes bad connection.
UNFAIR to players who wish to maliciously escape lost games.

...Just from purely theoretical perspective?

Do you believe that there is not and can not be any such solution that satisfies all these three conditions?

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed solution to the escapers problem...
Post #28 Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:20 pm 
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I think the current system is good. I was browsing the Tom Weiqi forum, where recently there is an interest in KGS due to Zen, and quite a few posters liked the system and mentioned how impressed they are at the rarity of escapers and asking undo.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed solution to the escapers problem...
Post #29 Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:07 pm 
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The problem is that people will still escape, so you haven't stopped the practice at all. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed solution to the escapers problem...
Post #30 Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:41 pm 
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Araban wrote:
Bantari wrote:
I bet you that any chronic escaper will NEVER set it!
Well, you wouldn't want to play against a chronic escaper anyways...


Well, then... what do you care how they are handled by the system? Don't play them, case closed.
Well, maybe its my fault, let me try to explain the concept differently:

To me, there are two kinds of people: the ones who think escaping is not a valid option and those who think it is. The latter category can be further divided into people who escape often, occasionally, think its ok, are proud of it, are not proud, whatever... Those who do escape by choice, regardless of reasons, frequency, and whatever - I call 'chronic escapers'. Because their mind-set allows them to escape, they do and they will. Might be a bad choice of words. Sorry.

Anyhow, in this light - what I was trying to say is that people who do escape will not close this particular door on themselves, at least i do not believe they will.

Upon further consideration, though, I think that the checkbox idea might have some merit. It will flag/identify people who are comfortable with not being able to escape.

On the other hand - there might be a group of people with crappy connections who will not check this particular checkbox and they can be incorrectly shunned as escapers.
No perfect system, I guess. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed solution to the escapers problem...
Post #31 Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:46 pm 
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Li Kao wrote:
It's not as bad as it sounds. This only happens if you try keep a continuous internet connection for over 24h. So if you shut down your computer at night it won't happen.
I fear Europe more every day.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed solution to the escapers problem...
Post #32 Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:46 pm 
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hyperpape wrote:
I fear Europe more every day.

Europe is not a country.

(I don't fear North America; I think Mexico and Canada are just fine)

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed solution to the escapers problem...
Post #33 Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:29 am 
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tj86430 wrote:
hyperpape wrote:
I fear Europe more every day.

Europe is not a country.

(I don't fear North America; I think Mexico and Canada are just fine)
[caution: not literally something I think]I fear Europe more every day[/caution: not literally something I think].

Is that clear enough now?

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed solution to the escapers problem...
Post #34 Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:49 am 
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Toge wrote:
lovely wrote:
I really like Tygem's system in the five minutes to reconnect policy. It works well and I've been able to continue playing games a few seconds after I disconnected without any problems.


- I think this is by far the best proposed solution.


I really hope there's a better solution, because I like KGS for the possibility of turn-based games in addition to its other features.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed solution to the escapers problem...
Post #35 Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:48 pm 
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Toge wrote:
Bantari wrote:
The point is - whatever solution you pick, it will ALWAYS be unfair to somebody...


What do you think if solution is:

FAIR to players with good intentions to finish their games.
FAIR to players who have sometimes bad connection.
UNFAIR to players who wish to maliciously escape lost games.

...Just from purely theoretical perspective?

Do you believe that there is not and can not be any such solution that satisfies all these three conditions?


Show me the solution and I will give you my opinion about it.
Chances are I will show you a case which breaks one of your above conditions.

For now, the only one which i find fair is the personal attitude adjustment I spoke about...
But I will change my mind once you show me a good system, of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed solution to the escapers problem...
Post #36 Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:17 pm 
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Bantari wrote:
Show me the solution and I will give you my opinion about it.


- When a player leaves game for whatever reason, there's a X minute time pool for him to come back. If he doesn't come back, the game is counted as forfeit for the leaving party. There's a possibility to adjourn a game on mutual agreement, which either player can initiate and with option "remember choice for this game" to allow truly turn-based games to happen. Adjourned games work the same way as in current system. The server detects when connection is timed out and provides helpful message "player x [color] is having connection issue", which the player sees in his client's language. After disconnected player comes back to server, discontinued game is automatically opened. Help tab is updated to explain how adjourning games work.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed solution to the escapers problem...
Post #37 Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:40 pm 
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Toge wrote:
Bantari wrote:
Show me the solution and I will give you my opinion about it.


- When a player leaves game for whatever reason, there's a X minute time pool for him to come back. If he doesn't come back, the game is counted as forfeit for the leaving party. There's a possibility to adjourn a game on mutual agreement, which either player can initiate and with option "remember choice for this game" to allow truly turn-based games to happen. Adjourned games work the same way as in current system. The server detects when connection is timed out and provides helpful message "player x [color] is having connection issue", which the player sees in his client's language. After disconnected player comes back to server, discontinued game is automatically opened. Help tab is updated to explain how adjourning games work.


Sigh...
So what if there is a storm and I lose power for a prolonged period of time?
I will lose the game even though I am not an escaper, which is not fair for people with bad connections.
Or did I misunderstood your idea?

As a matter of fact what you suggest above is very close to what I posted about the escaper system on PlayOK server. The difference is that if the remaining player also leaves the game before the first player gets back the game gets nullified.

I agree with you that what you propose is a good system (although I like the PlayOk provision or something like that) but this still does not mean it is always fair to everybody except actual escapers.

Another suggestion I like is that the escaping player cannot start a new game as long as the old one is still open, whoever said that had a good idea!

Come to think of it, I came with an idea:
How about adjusting the KGS system so that you cannot have unfinished games older than a certain time interval? For example a week. They are automatically resigned in your name unless you find a way to continue.

If you make this even more better and more prittier and more fairer - you have to add some complexity, for example:
- combine it with the idea that you cannot start a new game at ANY time one of your unfinished games is loaded and the opponent is waiting.
- combine this with the server 'remembering' when you decline an invite to such game, and marks YOU an escaper... even if it was your opponent who originally disconnected.
- and so on...

Still, I maintain my opinion - there is no perfect system.
You have not changed my mind... yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed solution to the escapers problem...
Post #38 Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:54 am 
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Another issue with the timeout is, that grievers can disconnect from a lost game simply to annoy their opponent by having to sit out the timeout (aka rage-quit).

I would like to say that go players are above such immaturity, but we all know that I would be kidding myself.


The KGS system (with tweaks) would be fantastic in my opinion, if coupled with some human administration. The purpose seems to be to reduce administrative effort to practically zero, but without a perfect system (which doesn't exist yet), this will always come with drawbacks.

Abuse is ultimately fairly rare, and I do think that those who decide to abuse do it to a large extend because they know that it is sanctioned by the system, like Araban described in his honest post. If systematic abusers (which could easily be identified by asking players to flag their opponent if the disconnect looks suspicious, an extremely high flag-to-disconnect ratio would be a signal for admins to look into it) would have to fear being caught out and banned by an administrator, in addition to current measures, then I would expect abuse to drop to almost zero.

Even with little effort (even wms himself could occasionally check the "leaders" in the flag-to-disconnect ratio), this could already have a big impact. Potential for drama exists, but I believe it could be prevented by making it very clear from the start that direct complaints will not be considered, and that admins will look at possible abusers only at their own pace and consideration.

By the way, there is no excuse whatsoever not to resign a lost game. No reasonable circumstance is stopping you from eventually returning to the game and resigning it, if you got disconnected in a clearly lost position. So honest players would not have to fear getting into suspicious situations by sheer accident (resigning or finishing a game should obviously discard any flag assigned to it).

If you leave a game in your unfinished game list that is lost beyond any doubt and which you disconnected from (though it's highly questionable even if you didn't), then you are an abuser. Period.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed solution to the escapers problem...
Post #39 Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:31 am 
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I would like a similar default behaviour like on IGS: a short period ( 5-10 minutes ) to cover the lost connection case. If the potenzial escaper doesn't join the game in this period he should lose the game by forfeit at once.

If two players like to adjourn a game for a longer period, the CGoban-Client could use the same mechanism like for "undo": One player press a button "Adjourn" and the other player has to agree by clicking an "Ok"-Button. Otherwise the short period system will be used.
With this solution an adjournment of a game is again a two-sided decision. There is no more work for admins and everyone can judge by himself if he thinks that the opponent just wants to escape from a lost game or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed solution to the escapers problem...
Post #40 Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:33 am 
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Just use TYGEM's policy, i mean, EXACT policy, its very easy.

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