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Offline Psychee
 Post subject: Tilde on KGS
Post #1 Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:16 am 
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Today I have a tilde mark on KGS.

But most of my 'strong' opponents are bots, and all my 'weaker' ones are human. :evil:

Why does playing with strong bots count in the calculation?

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Offline cdybeijing
 Post subject: Re: Tilde on KGS
Post #2 Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:36 am 
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Even playing free games against weaker opponents will help you to get rid of the tilde, so it shouldn't be any difficulty to get rid of it.
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Offline judicata
 Post subject: Re: Tilde on KGS
Post #3 Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:07 am 
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Play some weaker bots :). Or use automatch for a bit.
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Offline xed_over
 Post subject: Re: Tilde on KGS
Post #4 Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:32 am 
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judicata wrote:
Play some weaker bots :).

ok, so if the purpose of the tilde is to encourage/force players to "give back" to the community, then wouldn't playing bots kinda defeat this purpose -- making the whole point of having a tilde moot?
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Offline judicata
 Post subject: Re: Tilde on KGS
Post #5 Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:35 am 
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xed_over wrote:
judicata wrote:
Play some weaker bots :).

ok, so if the purpose of the tilde is to encourage/force players to "give back" to the community, then wouldn't playing bots kinda defeat this purpose -- making the whole point of having a tilde moot?


Hence the emoticon. But assuming the tilde is there from playing stronger bots...no harm in removing it through weaker ones...
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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Tilde on KGS
Post #6 Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:06 am 
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I agree with OP, having the tilde include bot games is silly, the intention was to ensure that players would play other weaker players,,, I don't think there's any issue with bots getting games...

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Offline xed_over
 Post subject: Re: Tilde on KGS
Post #7 Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:40 am 
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I play weaker players elsewhere in real life... I don't care if I have a tilde mark on the server. The reason for it is born out of faulty logic
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Offline judicata
 Post subject: Re: Tilde on KGS
Post #8 Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:55 am 
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xed_over wrote:
I play weaker players elsewhere in real life... I don't care if I have a tilde mark on the server. The reason for it is born out of faulty logic


Maybe... I think it does encourage several people to play weaker opponents at least on occasion. Whether it does more harm than good is debatable--and not something I have a strong opinion on.
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Offline snorri
 Post subject: Re: Tilde on KGS
Post #9 Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:45 pm 
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shapenaji wrote:
I agree with OP, having the tilde include bot games is silly, the intention was to ensure that players would play other weaker players,,, I don't think there's any issue with bots getting games...


I look at it a different way. It's actually hard to get a game with some of the stronger bots as they get picked up pretty quickly. So if you are somehow regularly getting games with these bots, in a way you're hogging them, making it harder for players with new accounts to get games with them. (As has been discussed, playing a bot is almost a right of passage to get rated on KGS, because of the culture of refusing to play unrated or ? players.)

Playing a weaker bot may sound silly, but in a way is giving back to the community---it's just not the community you may have in mind---it helps the authors of those bots improve their engines.

For these reasons, I think the current behavior is fine to the extent that one believes that ~ is valuable at all.

My beef is that I get twiddled when I play too many games in a row that are paid lessons against a strong teacher. Not to be selfish, but I don't see any reason why I should be stigmatized for that. Maybe there should a twiddle exemption for established teaching accounts on KGS. :-)

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Offline Psychee
 Post subject: Re: Tilde on KGS
Post #10 Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:34 am 
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snorri wrote:
shapenaji wrote:
I agree with OP, having the tilde include bot games is silly, the intention was to ensure that players would play other weaker players,,, I don't think there's any issue with bots getting games...


I look at it a different way. It's actually hard to get a game with some of the stronger bots as they get picked up pretty quickly. So if you are somehow regularly getting games with these bots, in a way you're hogging them, making it harder for players with new accounts to get games with them. (As has been discussed, playing a bot is almost a right of passage to get rated on KGS, because of the culture of refusing to play unrated or ? players.)


I've never thought about my waiting for bots and practing mouse-clicking skills has such a side effect. :lol:

This is the list of whole games that gave me the tilde. I've only played 12 times with bots to get it.

Code:
Yes   Bulbasaur [2k]   Psychee [5k]   19×19    8/8/11 5:16 PM   Free   W+Res.
Yes   AyaBot5 [4k]   Psychee [5k]   19×19    8/4/11 3:30 PM   Ranked   W+2.5
Yes   AyaBot5 [4k]   Psychee [5k]   19×19    8/4/11 3:17 PM   Ranked   W+51.5
Yes   AyaBot2 [3k]   Psychee [5k]   19×19 H2   8/4/11 3:05 PM   Ranked   B+Res.
Yes   AyaBot2 [3k]   Psychee [5k]   19×19 H2   8/4/11 12:50 PM   Ranked   B+Res.
Yes   AyaBot4 [4k]   Psychee [6k]   19×19 H2   8/4/11 10:47 AM   Ranked   B+Res.
Yes   pachi2 [-]   Psychee [5k]   19×19 H6   7/27/11 10:32 AM   Free   W+Res.
Yes   Psychee [5k]   pachi2 [-]   19×19    7/27/11 10:23 AM   Free   B+Res.
Yes   Psychee [5k]   magicherry [7k]   19×19    7/26/11 6:42 PM   Free   B+Res.
Yes   Psychee [6k]   jaguar137 [6k]   19×19    7/26/11 5:59 PM   Ranked   W+Res.
Yes   AyaBot5 [4k]   Psychee [6k]   19×19 H2   7/26/11 5:47 PM   Ranked   B+Res.
Yes   AyaBot5 [4k]   Psychee [6k]   19×19 H2   7/26/11 5:36 PM   Ranked   W+1.5
Yes   postneo2 [5k]   Psychee [5k]   19×19    7/26/11 5:06 PM   Ranked   W+Res.
Yes   Psychee [5k]   ppPpPpP   9×9    7/26/11 5:04 PM   Free   B+Res.
Yes   AyaMC2 [2k]   Psychee [5k]   19×19 H3   7/26/11 4:43 PM   Ranked   W+Res.
Yes   AyaMC2 [2k]   Psychee [6k]   19×19 H4   7/26/11 4:34 PM   Ranked   B+Res.
Yes   Psychee [6k]   Takahira [7k]   19×19    7/26/11 2:35 PM   Free   W+29.5
Yes   AyaBot2 [3k]   Psychee [5k]   19×19 H2   7/26/11 2:14 PM   Ranked   W+Res.
Yes   AyaBot2 [3k]   Psychee [5k]   19×19 H2   7/26/11 2:08 PM   Ranked   W+Res.
Yes   AyaBot4 [4k]   Psychee [4k]   19×19    7/26/11 1:54 PM   Ranked   W+14.5
Yes   Psychee [?]   AyaBot2 [3k]   19×19    7/26/11 11:20 AM   Ranked   W+Res.
Yes   pachi2 [-]   Psychee [?]   19×19    7/26/11 10:01 AM   Free   W+18.5
Yes   ManyFaces [2d]   Psychee [?]   19×19    7/26/11 9:47 AM   Ranked   W+Res.
Yes   AyaBot4 [4k]   Psychee [?]   19×19    7/26/11 9:40 AM   Ranked   W+Res.

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Offline Psychee
 Post subject: Re: Tilde on KGS
Post #11 Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:41 am 
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cdybeijing wrote:
Even playing free games against weaker opponents will help you to get rid of the tilde, so it shouldn't be any difficulty to get rid of it.


No, it's not difficult to get rid of it, which I've done. But if I want to play bots freely as I did without concerning about this tilde, then there will be a problem... :)

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Tilde on KGS
Post #12 Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:51 am 
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Psychee wrote:
cdybeijing wrote:
Even playing free games against weaker opponents will help you to get rid of the tilde, so it shouldn't be any difficulty to get rid of it.


No, it's not difficult to get rid of it, which I've done. But if I want to play bots freely as I did without concerning about this tilde, then there will be a problem... :)


Maybe you can keep playing bots freely, but after you play a stronger bot, then challenge a weaker bot. Go have lunch or something, and let the time run out. I don't think the bot will get mad at you.

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Offline Mef
 Post subject: Re: Tilde on KGS
Post #13 Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:43 am 
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Kirby wrote:
Psychee wrote:
cdybeijing wrote:
Even playing free games against weaker opponents will help you to get rid of the tilde, so it shouldn't be any difficulty to get rid of it.


No, it's not difficult to get rid of it, which I've done. But if I want to play bots freely as I did without concerning about this tilde, then there will be a problem... :)


Maybe you can keep playing bots freely, but after you play a stronger bot, then challenge a weaker bot. Go have lunch or something, and let the time run out. I don't think the bot will get mad at you.



Seems like the easier solution would be to play the weaker bot at a handicap so it is still an interesting game (it could also be a way to work on your handicap go!)
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Tilde on KGS
Post #14 Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:33 am 
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Mef wrote:
...


Seems like the easier solution would be to play the weaker bot at a handicap so it is still an interesting game (it could also be a way to work on your handicap go!)


Ah, that's right. Handicap games still count, don't they? Yeah, playing at a handicap would probably also work.

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Offline stalkor
 Post subject: Re: Tilde on KGS
Post #15 Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:08 am 
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fastest way to rid yourself of a tilde is doing 9x9 plaing as white, just fast timesettings and within an hour you got rid of it and then some:p

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