Traditional handicaps are the default rule, it is absolutely clear. Contradiction it not an argument. (Yes it is, no it isn't).

It is strange to criticize people for "adding some rules" to a "centuries old game" when all they are doing is following the traditional centuries old handicap placement.

Furthermore, I firmly believe the traditional handicap placements ARE the best way to learn and teach. The starpoints are not good for taking sure territory - but taking third line territory is the easiest thing to do in go - take it from me, after playing for over 30 years its still all I do.

Learning players need to learn about influence, seperating groups and fighting and this is how the starpoints are best used and this is what beginners must learn to properly use the star points. These are hard lessons, and it may frustrate because the stronger player may win, and the poor teacher may not be able to help enough - but the traditional 9 stone landscape provides the right classroom.

Making pillboxes and shimari and clinging to the lessons already learned may very well frustrate a teacher and increase your chances of winning - but they decrease your chances of learning anything new. I certainly agree that these can be interesting boredom distracting endeavors, but they are not the best teaching games.

Go is, of course, about winning, but handicap go should be more about learning and teaching. If you are losing because your efforts to make corner territory with your 4-4 point stones are resulting in your "teacher" carving up the board and crushing you and not offering any help re what you are doing wrong - then you are both doing it wrong.

_________________
My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle

I am frustrated, because I read a Fuseki book, and I know that the star points are only a subset of Go. However, my local go club is relatively small so I don't have the opportunity to try these other Fuseki against equals everyone is either weaker or stronger, and the weaker players also insist on using the star points, or even a practice other corner openings besides the star point so that I can prepare for more interesting Fuseki. Pretty lame way of teaching, a student that has gone out and read a book on Fuseki, but "No you can't do that we only play star points".

I must admit it is fun to beat up on the 4-4 point, in a game which one wins with territory, we talk about influence.

Eh, just play even teaching games. That's what I do at my club for practicing fuseki other than that based on 4,4 openings. Playing even games against stronger opponents is good for you anyway.

Go players at my club seem to prefer star point handicaps for teaching games, I think it is because they only know that one Joseki anyway.

SmoothOper, you can always try your non 4-4 fuseki with equal players online rather than just at your small local club. I see that you have a rating on IGS so why complain that there is no equal for you to test certain fuseki against? No need to keep complaining about how the star points are used as traditional handicap points which prevent you from testing your desired fuseki from your studies. The way the thread is going is very trollish.

MOD WARNING: SmoothOper, you seem to promote the idea of free handicap with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response. Please remember the forum rules that trolling is not allowed.

1. Personal Attacks
Remember the Golden Rule: do to others what you would like to be done to you. Trolling, flaming, bashing, or otherwise verbally attacking anyone is not allowed.

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

Well, yes and I would like to go to the club and play my Fuseki's which I have used online at a club, but the club's don't want to do however as the AGA specifically permits Free Handicaps, I don't see what they are so "emotional" about.

First post here, thought I'd keep to my strength of parsing text. SmoothOper, you are misquoting the rules to your own advantage here. There is no paranthetical this line of the rules, i.e. no "(by black)." Rather it simply states, "unless otherwise specified ..."

Therefore, unless allowed by the TD in tournament settings or by mutual consent in a friendly game.

Your appeal to the rules is futile. You cannot compel your opponent to use free placement. Traditional trumps free placement.

I can place my handicap stones wherever I want. If they feel they need to resign so be it, but next time there will be fewer handicaps on the board.

I don't mind free or standard placement as white, but to be honest handicap games are a favour from white. Sure, you can do whatever you want, it's not their responsibility to play you.

I'm curious what you think bullying and disrespect will accomplish beyond confirmation of your paranoia?

Not only do they want to tell you where to put your stones, but they want to be respected for it too.

Actually, in a tournament, you'll lose by forfeit, and in an informal game, they won't play you any more. What do you gain from this again?

I think its clear he is out to gain a narcissistic sense of righteouness. No matter the rules, nor tradition, no sports(games)manship, no even manners ...

I'm done rubbernecking this car-wreck.

I think it's just violent lack of understanding combined with a strong desire for free placement. End of story.

Well now that everyone has come to the understanding that the rules allow for free handicaps...

... only when explicitly specified ...

Yes, now we've come to this agreement, let's talk about other stuff. Like this traditional handicap game at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5848

I had free placement, but decided for the traditional placement instead for that one

I dunno what your hang up is or what club you go to but if you want to explore some sort of opening style with a stronger player I'm sure they would have no problem discussing with you. Going over joseki continuations is pretty common at clubs because you don't have to setup a giant board situation and they are situations that most people that have played for a while are familiar with.

I'll also reiterate the other person's suggestion to play even, you quoted him and continued talking about being forced to play star points. You will lose, but you will learn a lot (esp opening style)

People will be less willing to do this though if you're really angry all the time.

Well I would prove that alternate Fuseki are playable and winnable except narrow minded traditional players try to make Fuseki against the rules, so why not rub their noses in it?

It will give you fewer opportunities to play stronger players and so improve slower.
Become stronger than them first. Then you can really rub their noses in it!

Revenge is a dish best served cold. -- Old Klingon Proverb

_________________
"The connection between the language in which we program and the problems and solutions we can imagine is very close" -- Bjarne Stoustrup